Edward Montagu, 2nd Lord of Boughton (d 10.01.1683) m. Anne Winwood (dau of Sir Ralph Winwood of Ditton Park) ((1)) Edward Montagu (dvpsp 08.1665) ((2)) Ralph Montagu, 1st Duke of Montagu (bpt 24.12.1638, d 09.03.1709) m1. (24.08.1673) Elizabeth Wriothesley (d 09.1690, dau of Thomas, Earl of Southampton) ((A)) John Montagu, 2nd Duke of Montagu (d 05.07.1749) m. (17.03.1705) Mary Churchill (d 14.05.1751, dau of John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough) ((i))+ 3 sons (d young - John, George, Edward Churchill) ((iv)) Isabella Montagu (d 20.12.1786) m1. (sp) William Montagu, 2nd Duke of Manchester (b 04.1700, d 21.10.1739) m2. Edward Hussey, later Montagu, Earl of Beaulieu (b c1721, d 25.11.1802) ((v)) Eleanor Montagu (d young) ((vi)) Mary Montagu (b c1711, d 01.05.1775) m. (07.07.1730) George Brudenell, 4th Earl of Cardigan, Duke of Montagu (b 26.07.1712, d 23.05.1790) ((B)) Anne Montagu m. Alexander Popham of Littlecote (d 16.06.1705) m2. (08.09.1692) Elizabeth Cavendish (b 22.02.1654, d 28.08.1734, dau of Henry, Duke of Newcastle) ((3)) Elizabeth Montagu m. Sir Daniel Harvey (a 1668, Ambassador) http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie…
"The Royal Prerogative [singular] is a body of customary authority, privilege, and immunity, recognised in common law jurisdictions possessing a monarchy as belonging to the Crown alone. It is the means by which some of the executive powers of government are possessed by and vested in a monarch with regard to the process of governance of their state are carried out." There follows a list of the powers that still are exercized by a British monarch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roya…
"PREROGATIVE, in law, an exclusive privilege of the Crown....In English law, Blackstone says, by the word prerogative we are to understand the character and power which the sovereign hath over and above all other persons, in right of his regal dignity; and which, though part of the common law of the country, is out of its ordinary course.[...] The prerogative of the Crown...has been gradually limited by a long series of enactments, the most worthy of notice being Magna carta, Confirniatio cartarum, Prerogativa regis, the Petition of Right, the Habeas Corpus Act (1679), the Bill of Rights and the Act of Settlement." etc. http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/P…
They seem to have been sharing views; and even if Pett agreed on this, the experience of 1667 suggests it wasn't "heeded". Were they both preoccupied with the ships?
"Upnor Castle [at]…the top…there is a fine prospect, but of very small force;"
Bradford, you ask a keen question: “What is the sigifnicance of 'force' here?…Or, not much room for men taking up a defensive position on top?”
An L&M note suggests this: “Upnor Castle, on the left bank of the Medway, a little downstream from Chatham, had been built under Elizabeth for the defense of the river. Ineffective against the invading Dutch fleet of 1667, it was much strengthened afterwards. By 1719 there were three smaller forts attached to it….”
= It was obvious to Pepys that its armament was dated?
Another chance for Sam to pray for divine mercy: "with much content (God forgive me) I did hear by the Clerk of the Ropeyard how it was by Sir W. Batten's private letter that one parcel of Alderman Barker's was received.”
L&M note: “It was probably this hemp to which Coventry referred in a letter to Pepys (3 March 1665) as ‘bad hemp’ bought of Barker ‘by some of our own eyes’:….On 28 July 1662 the Board had ordered Carteret not to pay the £1000 still owing to Barker for his Milan and Riga hemp until he had provided securities for the completion of his contract….Cf. Pepys’s recent suspicions of Batten’s collusion with the flagmakers.” Tuesday 29 July 1662 http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
(Music by which I must eat the late, lamented [neighbor's] cat, that preferred to nap under my car, and waked not when I backed out: or so Glyn suggested?)
(A tune to contemplate as I, like Edie, read Sam, marvelling at the recall and vivid detail of these Chatham entries, recorded at some future time, unless he had a PDA.)
postprandial dip that's me. Re-reading it, I'm not happy about the tone of that last (even misspelled) post of mine: Mary and Xjy, it seemed to me that you are both right, big time.
"so to church again, where quite weary": a postprancial dip as circadian rhythms go on and more, I wonder, Mary: Tony Eldridge calculated “yesterday” that the horeseback ride to Rochester had ended “well after midnight,” and then, a glass of wine and a bedtime horror story…. So, Xjy, the “day of rest” was fore-shortened! But, on the other hand, my younger son at 27 does this on 3 hours’ sleep per night for several days when juiced by adrenalin as Sam surely is.
Top > Food and Drink > Food > Baked goods > Syllabub http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo… Appropiate reminder, Bradford: credit David Gurliacci too (syllabub seems to attract Davids).
"This day...he told me how despicable...it is to be a hangman in Poland, although it be a place of credit."
L&M note: "Cocke had lived in Danzig c. 1656, trading in hemp and other naval stores. (It was there he met his first wife.) The office of executioner had been introduced into Poland with other municipal institutions from Germany, and was regarded with abhorrence. The hangman often had difficulty finding a wife: in Cracow females under sentence of death were forgiven if they would marry an executioner. Towns which had no hangman would employ other criminals or the accuser. See Z. Gloger in Encyklopedia Staropolska (1900-3 ed.): 'Kat'."
To the pepysdiary@smartgroups.com I queried: "I wrote "Sam's" without hesitation. How would he have been called and by whom? I take it his servants and equals (whoever they be) would have called him Mr. Pepys (as he refers to Mr. Moore). Would anyone have called him Sam? Samuel? Sammy? Sam'l?"
Martha Rosen replied: "A quick look at Daniel Defoe's "Moll Flanders" (on line at Project Gutenberg) finds a man addressed as Robin by his brother. The two of them discuss a woman whom they refer to as "Mrs. Betty". It suggests that first names were used only by those very close to you, with Mrs. Elizabeth or Mr. Samuel intermediate before Madam and Sir. (Would Mrs. and Mr. be pronounced as mistress and master?)"
I replied: "Thank you, Martha: Old-timers in the American South (here [in western KY], for example) say "MIZruss," listed in competent dictionaries as "dial." and clearly a turn on "mistress," which is where the "r" in "MISS-uz" [Mrs.] comes from. "Mrs. Betty" and "Mr. John" are also in use among old-timers. Of course the shock to them is to be called by their first name only by those who work in doctors' offices. We here do use "Ma'am" and "Sir" -- as did my parents, descended from Southerners. I would not be surprised if, in the 17c, Mrs. and Mr. were pronounced as mistress and master, as you suggest."
On a farm 12 miles WSW of Hannibal, MO (speaking of "Mark Twain"), my paternal grandmother (who always carried white gloves "into town" ) addressed her husband (16 years her senior) as "Mr. Paul," as did the neighbors, and he her "L'uEYEzie" (for Louise). To her we (offspring of her 12 children) learned to say, when addressed, "Yes'm," or, for emphasis [PRN], "yes, MA'AM!"
Cumgranissalis, turns out "This [other] Samuel Pepys (of Dublin[, whither Sir W. Penn is going]) was a parson -- the son of Sir Richard Pepys, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland (d. 1659), who was a first cousin of the diarist's father. He was now attempting to obtain some £5000-worth of soldiers’ debentures owed to his father, and on 8 August 1662 Ormond. the Lord Lieutenant, recommended his case to the Trustees of the Commissioned Officers: HMC, Ormonde, n.s., iii.21.” L&M note.
This Samuel Pepys (of Dublin) was a parson -- the son of Sir Richard Pepys, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland (d. 1659), who was a first cousin of the diarist's father.
Comments
First Reading
About Edward Mountagu (2nd Lord Mountagu of Boughton)
Terry F. • Link
Edward Montagu, 2nd Lord of Boughton (d 10.01.1683)
m. Anne Winwood (dau of Sir Ralph Winwood of Ditton Park)
((1)) Edward Montagu (dvpsp 08.1665)
((2)) Ralph Montagu, 1st Duke of Montagu (bpt 24.12.1638, d 09.03.1709)
m1. (24.08.1673) Elizabeth Wriothesley (d 09.1690, dau of Thomas, Earl of Southampton)
((A)) John Montagu, 2nd Duke of Montagu (d 05.07.1749)
m. (17.03.1705) Mary Churchill (d 14.05.1751, dau of John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough)
((i))+ 3 sons (d young - John, George, Edward Churchill)
((iv)) Isabella Montagu (d 20.12.1786)
m1. (sp) William Montagu, 2nd Duke of Manchester (b 04.1700, d 21.10.1739)
m2. Edward Hussey, later Montagu, Earl of Beaulieu (b c1721, d 25.11.1802)
((v)) Eleanor Montagu (d young)
((vi)) Mary Montagu (b c1711, d 01.05.1775)
m. (07.07.1730) George Brudenell, 4th Earl of Cardigan, Duke of Montagu (b 26.07.1712, d 23.05.1790)
((B)) Anne Montagu
m. Alexander Popham of Littlecote (d 16.06.1705)
m2. (08.09.1692) Elizabeth Cavendish (b 22.02.1654, d 28.08.1734, dau of Henry, Duke of Newcastle)
((3)) Elizabeth Montagu
m. Sir Daniel Harvey (a 1668, Ambassador)
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie…
About Monday 4 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
Dirk, I second Pauline's gratitude: it deserves to be put in the Background info: http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…
About Royal prerogative
Terry F. • Link
"The Royal Prerogative [singular] is a body of customary authority, privilege, and immunity, recognised in common law jurisdictions possessing a monarchy as belonging to the Crown alone. It is the means by which some of the executive powers of government are possessed by and vested in a monarch with regard to the process of governance of their state are carried out." There follows a list of the powers that still are exercized by a British monarch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roya…
"PREROGATIVE, in law, an exclusive privilege of the Crown....In English law, Blackstone says, by the word prerogative we are to understand the character and power which the sovereign hath over and above all other persons, in right of his regal dignity; and which, though part of the common law of the country, is out of its ordinary course.[...] The prerogative of the Crown...has been gradually limited by a long series of enactments, the most worthy of notice being Magna carta, Confirniatio cartarum, Prerogativa regis, the Petition of Right, the Habeas Corpus Act (1679), the Bill of Rights and the Act of Settlement." etc.
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/P…
About Monday 4 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
Is Commissioner Pett still with Mr. Pepys?
They seem to have been sharing views; and even if Pett agreed on this, the experience of 1667 suggests it wasn't "heeded".
Were they both preoccupied with the ships?
About Monday 4 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
Or not "much room for" such arms as could command the river (your wording is better than mine).
About Monday 4 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
"Upnor Castle [at]…the top…there is a fine prospect, but of very small force;"
Bradford, you ask a keen question: “What is the sigifnicance of 'force' here?…Or, not much room for men taking up a defensive position on top?”
An L&M note suggests this: “Upnor Castle, on the left bank of the Medway, a little downstream from Chatham, had been built under Elizabeth for the defense of the river. Ineffective against the invading Dutch fleet of 1667, it was much strengthened afterwards. By 1719 there were three smaller forts attached to it….”
= It was obvious to Pepys that its armament was dated?
About Monday 4 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
Another chance for Sam to pray for divine mercy:
"with much content (God forgive me) I did hear by the Clerk of the Ropeyard how it was by Sir W. Batten's private letter that one parcel of Alderman Barker's was received.”
L&M note: “It was probably this hemp to which Coventry referred in a letter to Pepys (3 March 1665) as ‘bad hemp’ bought of Barker ‘by some of our own eyes’:….On 28 July 1662 the Board had ordered Carteret not to pay the £1000 still owing to Barker for his Milan and Riga hemp until he had provided securities for the completion of his contract….Cf. Pepys’s recent suspicions of Batten’s collusion with the flagmakers.” Tuesday 29 July 1662 http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
About Sunday 3 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
I wonder: Did Sam read his Sunday Oaths today?
Did he carry a small, shorthand copy in his purse (17c PDA)?
About Sunday 3 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
Xjy, simply lovely: inspired.
(Music by which I must eat the late, lamented [neighbor's] cat, that preferred to nap under my car, and waked not when I backed out: or so Glyn suggested?)
(A tune to contemplate as I, like Edie, read Sam, marvelling at the recall and vivid detail of these Chatham entries, recorded at some future time, unless he had a PDA.)
About Sunday 3 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
postprandial dip
that's me. Re-reading it, I'm not happy about the tone of that last (even misspelled) post of mine: Mary and Xjy, it seemed to me that you are both right, big time.
About Sunday 3 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
"so to church again, where quite weary": a postprancial dip as circadian rhythms go on and more, I wonder, Mary: Tony Eldridge calculated “yesterday” that the horeseback ride to Rochester had ended “well after midnight,” and then, a glass of wine and a bedtime horror story…. So, Xjy, the “day of rest” was fore-shortened! But, on the other hand, my younger son at 27 does this on 3 hours’ sleep per night for several days when juiced by adrenalin as Sam surely is.
About William Bodham
Terry F. • Link
Clerk of the Ropeyard, Woolwich. (L&M, iii.156.n.1)
About Sunday 3 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
"At night walked home to the Hill-house, Mr. Barrow with me, talking of the faults of the yard"
Last Tuesday's walking seminar on the faults of the yard at Woolwich with Robert Waith http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1… is recapiulated at Chathham with Philip Barrow http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…
(But, Dirk, what if the animal isn't, ah, appetizing?)
About Sunday 3 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
Top > Food and Drink > Food > Baked goods > Syllabub
http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…
Appropiate reminder, Bradford: credit David Gurliacci too (syllabub seems to attract Davids).
About Sunday 3 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
"had a syllabub" -- q.v.!! famous thanks to David Quidnunc, whom David Widger (D.W.) should have consulted.
About Sunday 3 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
"This day...he told me how despicable...it is to be a hangman in Poland, although it be a place of credit."
L&M note: "Cocke had lived in Danzig c. 1656, trading in hemp and other naval stores. (It was there he met his first wife.) The office of executioner had been introduced into Poland with other municipal institutions from Germany, and was regarded with abhorrence. The hangman often had difficulty finding a wife: in Cracow females under sentence of death were forgiven if they would marry an executioner. Towns which had no hangman would employ other criminals or the accuser. See Z. Gloger in Encyklopedia Staropolska (1900-3 ed.): 'Kat'."
About Saturday 2 August 1662
Terry F. • Link
"About forms of personal address in Sam's time"
To the pepysdiary@smartgroups.com I queried: "I wrote "Sam's" without hesitation. How would he have been called and by whom? I take it his servants and equals (whoever they be) would have called him Mr. Pepys (as he refers to Mr. Moore). Would anyone have called him Sam? Samuel? Sammy? Sam'l?"
Martha Rosen replied: "A quick look at Daniel Defoe's "Moll Flanders" (on line at Project Gutenberg) finds a man addressed as Robin by his brother. The two of them discuss a woman whom they refer to as "Mrs. Betty". It suggests that first names were used only by those very close to you, with Mrs. Elizabeth or Mr. Samuel intermediate before Madam and Sir. (Would Mrs. and Mr. be pronounced as mistress and master?)"
I replied: "Thank you, Martha: Old-timers in the American South (here [in western KY], for example) say "MIZruss," listed in competent dictionaries as "dial." and clearly a turn on "mistress," which is where the "r" in "MISS-uz" [Mrs.] comes from. "Mrs. Betty" and "Mr. John" are also in use among old-timers. Of course the shock to them is to be called by their first name only by those who work in doctors' offices.
We here do use "Ma'am" and "Sir" -- as did my parents, descended from
Southerners. I would not be surprised if, in the 17c, Mrs. and Mr. were pronounced as
mistress and master, as you suggest."
On a farm 12 miles WSW of Hannibal, MO (speaking of "Mark Twain"), my paternal grandmother (who always carried white gloves "into town" ) addressed her husband (16 years her senior) as "Mr. Paul," as did the neighbors, and he her "L'uEYEzie" (for Louise). To her we (offspring of her 12 children) learned to say, when addressed, "Yes'm," or, for emphasis [PRN], "yes, MA'AM!"
About Friday 27 June 1662
Terry F. • Link
Cumgranissalis, turns out "This [other] Samuel Pepys (of Dublin[, whither Sir W. Penn is going]) was a parson -- the son of Sir Richard Pepys, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland (d. 1659), who was a first cousin of the diarist's father. He was now attempting to obtain some £5000-worth of soldiers’ debentures owed to his father, and on 8 August 1662 Ormond. the Lord Lieutenant, recommended his case to the Trustees of the Commissioned Officers: HMC, Ormonde, n.s., iii.21.” L&M note.
About Samuel Pepys (a)
Terry F. • Link
This Samuel Pepys (of Dublin) was a parson -- the son of Sir Richard Pepys, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland (d. 1659), who was a first cousin of the diarist's father.
About John Pepys (c, cousin)
Terry F. • Link
Confidential secretary to the Chief Justice, Sir Edward Coke under James I.