Tuesday 10 December 1661 (The Diary of Samuel Pepys)

RexLeo on 10 Dec 2004 • Link

"...in my way had a stop of above an hour and a half, which is a great trouble..."

Three hundred and odd years later, nothing much has changed - same traffic, same congestion. I could have written this about today's commute.

vicenzo on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

my spititual and temporal earthly lauds did DIE Lunæ, 25 die Novembris.

© Copyright 2003 University of London & History of Parliament Trust House of Lauds did make a bill?
"...and in my way had a stop of above an hour and a half, which is a great trouble this Parliament time..."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/…

Date: 01/12/2004

Australian Susan on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

"I got thither before my Lord came from the House"
Sounds as though dinner was held up for "my Lord" and if Sam had got there after my Lord,they would all have started. How formal would all this have been? And how would dinner have been served. I know that they did not have the 'service a la russe' introduced into polite society in the 19th century, which is what we have now, with several courses of different types of food served separately (e.g. soup, fish, entree, roast, pudding, dessert [nuts etc] savoury, ladies retire, gents have port and cigars - as in Mrs Beeton), but did they still have the medieval idea of lots of dishes all together, then cleared away and another lot brought? If so, it was easier to join if when late as Sam might have been today?

Ruben on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

“I got thither before my Lord came from the House”
I think the problem is not the eating this or that but the ceremony involved. He was expected to make company (to wait) during dinner as a sign of respect to the higher placed person.
Remember what the French King said about punctuality!

tld on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Role Call in Parliament from vincent's (vincenzo) link, "Ds. Crewe, Excused, Not being well"

Is this the same Lord Crew Samuel dined with today?

Ds. is abbreviation for what title?

Pedro. on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Ds. is abbreviation for what title?

The site below gives the 5 ranks in Peerage. Duke, Earl, Marquis and Viscount can be accounted for. But Ds, could this be Baron or a member of the Church?
http://www.debretts.co.uk/peerage…

Ruben on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Ds. is not a title, but a Latin abbreviation.
In the dictionary of Latin common abbreviations (see: http://asgle.classics.unc.edu/abb…)
we see that Ds stands for one of the following:
d(e) s, d(e) s(ua), d(e) s(uis), d(e) s(uo), d(e)s(ignatum), d(ecreto) s(enatus), d(ecurionum) s(ententia), D(eo) S(aturno), D(eo) S(oli), D(eu)s, D(i)s, d(ie) s(exto), d(ie)s, d(iebu)s, d(iscens) s(ignifer), d(iscens) s(igniferorum), d(omini)s, D(omino) s(ancto) . It is for us now to find out which of this abbreviations is the right one.
I think it may be "De Signatum", meaning that Lord Crewe (and others) sent a signed note excusing themself for some reason (illness, etc.).

"Epus." is another Latin abbreviation that I do not know how to interpret, but must be similar in some way.

I hope some of our readers knows better and shares is knowledge with us.

David A. Smith on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

"and in my way had a stop of above an hour and a half"
It is ever thus.
I have read (not verified recently) that Julius Caesar banned all wheeled traffic from Rome during daylight hours.
Indeed, a working definition of a city is what can be commuted (that is, a radius from the city center to the periphery) in an hour or so.

Ruben on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Ds. Crewe
May be DominiS Crewe (Exalted way of "Mr. Crewe")?

Ruben on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Ds.
Dominis = Lord

vicenzo on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

dux[Latin : dux, leader, commander][Duke,ducal as in Dux Albermarle]:
Marchio[Maquess]
dux,Comes[earl as in Sandwich];
Vice comes [viscount][comes meaning companion or attendant [of the King]??
ranking as shown in the House of Lauds be
Archiep [Arch bishop- episcopus] : Epus[episcopus]:
They be all lordly, just Titles are inherited from times past and thereby subject to the rules of the original authority of commision:
subject to better authority: thanks for Debrett

Pedro. on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Epus..Bishops.

"And the Bishops, I hear, do take their places in the Lords House this day."
Sam's note from the 20th November, and now 8 are absent. I wonder how many seats the Bishops actually held in the Lords?

tld on 12 Dec 2004 • Link

For Ds. I'm inclined to side with Ruben's Ds. = Dominis (Lord) though that is the same Latin for Jesus Christ is it not? Seems a tad presumptuous.

Still wondering where Lord Crew was, maybe not in the House, but Samuel seems to think that's where he was, "... My Lord come from the House." Either Samuel is confused or there is more than one Lord Crew (Crewe) in the House?

vicenzo on 12 Dec 2004 • Link

epus:[not epicureans]:It appears to be as follows :15 plus 1 arch, plus 7 sickly, including some there be doubts about[infra AEtatem ][under,below, status?] and 1 no excusey Archbish of Cant. [total 24?]
The St Asaph one, City,town or hamlet be so small that ye get lost going passed it from Rhyl to Denbeigh.
Re: Crewe[Crew] he be in the 5th rank: Baron [Ds.{latin: dux,ducis ;OF/lat: duc ducere to lead; The Italians liked [Il]Duce then there be ducat, doge, ducal,duke and then there is duct to lead us to the lead ledge ]. Some of the extractions of duco,ducere, duxi ductum
Ds. [The saxon be lazy and go into removing as many syllables as possible] is I do believe be mosty for Barons, also known as peers[5 levels] or me lauds]Lords] the top list of roll-call be in order of pecking, the second be in order from the least to the top ranker.
A dictionary does list Ds as decistere = ? then there be decidere = to cut off? (not likely) to arrive at a solution that ends uncertainty or dispute abouut important matters [ but there is desidere = to sit idle, quite appropiate for one parking his day in the pews of House of [Domini] Lords]]
For being absent without permission they be asked to coff up monies for the poor box. There is an entry to that effect in the House of Lords

They all be lords: spiritual [arch and plain] and temporal [5 versions]

dirk on 12 Dec 2004 • Link

Ds.

After searching around on the net, it seems to me that the likely meaning is a common abbreviation for "dominis" (= equivalent of Sir), referring to the title "baron". I couldn't find any satisfying etymology for "baron" other than a vague reference to old Germanic and old French. In Spanish though the word "varon" (b and v sound the same in Spanish), with the general meaning of "Hombre, persona del sexo masculino" [Man, person of the male sex], is still commonly used - albeit not as a title.

By the way, a very complete list of Latin abbreviations (although of little help in this case, but maybe for future reference) can be found on:
http://asgle.classics.unc.edu/abb…

R on 12 Dec 2004 • Link

In Spanish "varon" is a male person.
As for "Baron" it is a title (below Vizconde). This words have different origins.
As for V and B they DO NOT sound the same in Spanish.

language hat on 14 Dec 2004 • Link

It's "dominus," not "dominis."

And yes, V and B are exactly the same in Spanish (/b/ at the start of a word, bilabial /v/ between vowels). That's why they're so often interchanged in graffiti.

Bill on 9 Dec 2014 • Link

"So to dinner to my Lord Crew’s"

Sam was "troubled" by Lord Crew's sister yesterday. (Lady Wright) The two are brother- and sister-in-law to Sam's patron, the Earl of Sandwich.

Sasha Clarkson on 11 Dec 2014 • Link

Note that today is the Winter Solstice (shortest day) for Pepys.

Sasha Clarkson on 11 Dec 2014 • Link

Ooops - I meant tomorrow! - could you move or remove that please Phil? :)

Sasha Clarkson on 11 Dec 2014 • Link

I'm confused here about the identity of "my Lord" Crew: Thomas Crew is an MP, and is not yet Lord Crew, as his father, Baron Crew of Stene, is still alive until 1679. "The House" could mean the Commons or the Lords.

"My Lord" could of course merely be a courtesy extended by Pepys to Crew (fils), but he is referred to as "Sir Thomas" on 13th November, and his father, Baron Crew, is referred to as "My Lord Crew".

http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Although Baron Crew "retired from public life" after the restoration, can we conclude that he never attended the Lords? The History of Parliament website also states that "He was reckoned an opposition peer from 1675 till his death"?

http://www.historyofparliamentonl…

Chris Squire UK on 23 Dec 2014 • Link

DNB has:‘ . . In the king's coronation honours of 1661 [John Crew] was created Baron Crew of Steane, retiring from public prominence thereafter. However, he continued to feature in the political gambits of the Cavalier Parliament, is known to have frowned upon its Anglican policies, and was marked as ‘an opposition peer’ from 1675 . . Crew is frequently referred to by Pepys, who seems to have entertained a very high respect for him . . ‘.

We are in December 1661 so it seems obvious to me that when SP wrote ‘my Lord Crew’ he meant Lord Crew, who was still around, and not his son, ‘one of the least active Members of the Cavalier Parliament’.

So the link above is wrong and needs to be corrected [I humbly submit to our esteemed Editor] . .

eileen d. on 15 Jun 2017 • Link

re: Ruben's note above: Remember what the French King said about punctuality!

"Kings (especially before the [French] revolution) didn’t need to be punctual. They could show up when they wanted. Afterall, people would wait for them. But [King Louis XVIII of France, to whom the quote is often attributed] suggests that one way a king can show respect for other people is to meet them at the appointed time. >>'If this is true for kings, it certainly is true for you and me.'<<[emphasis added]"
https://english.stackexchange.com…

jimmigee on 16 Jun 2017 • Link

Not only kings being unpunctual. In 1945 the Pope gave audiences for soldiers and others in a huge reception chamber. The American writer Edmund Wilson and New Yorker correspondent Philip Hamburger attended one. "It was hot and crowded, and when Pius XII was five, ten, fifteen and then twenty minutes late, Wilson boomed out, 'Where is that goddamned pope?' This outburst, Hamburger says, 'brought to his side more Swiss Guards than had probably been seen in action since the Reformation, with their pikes extended toward him.' " --Edmund Wilson: A Life in Literature by Lewis Dabney.

eileen d. on 18 Jun 2017 • Link

an irresistible anecdote, jimmigee!

Terry Foreman on 28 Jun 2017 • Link

"I sent my letters by a porter to the posthouse in Southwark to be sent by despatch to the Downs."

Thomas Barlow, postmaster, Southwark, was pad for many similar services to the Navy Board. (L&M note)

Terry Foreman on 3 Nov 2017 • Link

"to my Lord Crew’s by coach, and in my way had a stop of above an hour and a half, "

Traffic-blocks in 17th-century London were at their worst in parliament time, when the town was full. Pepys was unable on this occasion to abandon his coach and take a boat, since his destination (Lincoln's Inn Fields) was not on the river. (L&M note)

Charles Miller on 11 Dec 2024 • Link

"to my Lord Crew’s by coach, and in my way had a stop of above an hour and a half, "

The odd thing here is that Whitehall to Lincoln’s Inn is a half hour walk, nothing to SP who frequently walks much further. He doesn’t say he was wearing particularly fine clothes or mention rain, so one wonders why he stuck it out so stubbornly for such a short trip…

San Diego Sarah on 11 Dec 2024 • Link

The Commons worked hard today on Supply -- for once the details are recorded -- but the Lords seem to have goofed off (perhaps there were many committees meeting?).

One man is reported to have gone to extraordinary lengths to thwart the Commons: "John Browne, who, by Order of the 13th of July last, was to be taken into Custody by the Serjeant at Arms attending this House, for his Abuse of Mr. Phillips, a Member of this House, had, merely to defeat the said Order, procured a colourable Execution to be taken out against him; whereupon he hath rendered himself a Prisoner in Ivelchester Gaol, on Purpose that he may not be brought up to answer his said Misdemeanor at the Bar of this House.

"Ordered, That the Serjeant at Arms attending this House, or his Deputy, do bring up the said Browne in Custody, to answer the said Misdemeanor: And the Officer, in whose Custody he is, is to deliver the said Browne unto the Serjeant attending this House, or his Deputy; together with the Writ, or Warrant, whereby he is committed: And the said Browne is to bring with him the Execution upon which he hath caused himself to be so committed."

Wiki suggests that Ivelchester could be Ilchester (a village and civil parish, situated on the River Yeo or Ivel, 5 miles [8 kilometres] north of Yeovil, Somerset).

San Diego Sarah on 11 Dec 2024 • Link

You're right, Charles Miller. Last Sunday the Rev. Ralph said: "... winter not yet come in a manner, ..." and next Sunday he says "... the winter yet open" so I'm thinking it was a mild December.

Maybe he had forgotten his sword? Maybe he had a hole in his boots? Maybe he was having a satisfying discussion in Latin with Will Hewer? Maybe he was reviewing papers or had too much to carry to hoof it? We can but wonder.

San Diego Sarah on 11 Dec 2024 • Link

"... finding Mons. Eschar to be gone, I sent my letters by a porter to the posthouse in Southwark to be sent by despatch to the Downs."

My guess is that by sending the post across the Thames to Southwark, Pepys saved his letter from about a day of sorting and transportation around London. This was almost as efficient as giving it to Mons. Eschar, but more expensive and slower at the Downs end, obviously. The postmaster at Deal occupied a crucial position, and was one of Joseph Williamson's intelligencers (if not more):
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

San Diego Sarah on 13 Dec 2024 • Link

From Sandwich's log, at anchor in Tangier Bay:

December 10, Tuesday morning.
The Princess came in from convoying to the Northern Point.
The Augustine came in from convoying also 3 days before.

With me in Tangier Bay the ships in the margin -- Royal James, Mary, Montagu, Portland, Princess, Yarmouth, Hampshire, Augustine.
In Gibraltar Bay -- Swiftsure, Fairfax, Anne, Constant Warwick, 2 ketches.
At Cadiz -- The Colchester and Martin.
At Faro -- The Greyhound.
At Lagos -- the Newcastle.
At Lisbon -- The Gift.
At Leghorn -- The Assurance,
At Zante -- The Crown and Nonsuch
Plying in the mouth of the Gut -- The Assistance.

In the evening there came on board me Gayland's Majordomo and another to speak to me on his part, and brought me 10 oxen and 20 sheep for a present, and 30 oxen and 50 sheep more to sell.

Copied from
The Journal of Edward Mountagu,
First Earl of Sandwich
Admiral and General-at-Sea 1659 - 1665

Edited by RC Anderson
Printed for the Navy Records Society
MDCCCCXXIX

Section III - Mediterranean 1661/62

@@@

San Diego Sarah on 13 Dec 2024 • Link

CONTINUED:

The Gift -- I think it was the Great Gift with Sandwich in 1661 --
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
Leghorn, Italy --
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
The Assurance --
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
Zante, Greek Islands --
https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…
The Crown -- a possible candidate -- the Navy rented merchant ships when necessary --
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
The Nonsuch -- there was a ketch and a frigate of this name. Which one is this? --
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
The mouth of the Gut -- even more vague than just "the gut"
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
The Assistance --
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
The Majordomo was Gayland's representative.
Gayland = Abd Allah al-Ghailan (AKA "Guiland", "Gayland") --
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

The Diary of Samuel Pepys

Tuesday 10 December 1661

33 Annotations

First Reading

RexLeo on 10 Dec 2004 • Link

vicenzo on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Australian Susan on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Ruben on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

tld on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Pedro. on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Ruben on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

David A. Smith on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Ruben on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Ruben on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

vicenzo on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

Pedro. on 11 Dec 2004 • Link

tld on 12 Dec 2004 • Link

vicenzo on 12 Dec 2004 • Link

dirk on 12 Dec 2004 • Link

R on 12 Dec 2004 • Link

language hat on 14 Dec 2004 • Link

Second Reading

Bill on 9 Dec 2014 • Link

Sasha Clarkson on 11 Dec 2014 • Link

Sasha Clarkson on 11 Dec 2014 • Link

Sasha Clarkson on 11 Dec 2014 • Link

Chris Squire UK on 23 Dec 2014 • Link

eileen d. on 15 Jun 2017 • Link

jimmigee on 16 Jun 2017 • Link

eileen d. on 18 Jun 2017 • Link

Terry Foreman on 28 Jun 2017 • Link

Terry Foreman on 3 Nov 2017 • Link

Third Reading

Charles Miller on 11 Dec 2024 • Link

San Diego Sarah on 11 Dec 2024 • Link

San Diego Sarah on 11 Dec 2024 • Link

San Diego Sarah on 11 Dec 2024 • Link

San Diego Sarah on 13 Dec 2024 • Link

San Diego Sarah on 13 Dec 2024 • Link