Paul Brewster on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

Pepys doesn't appear to be in his best form here.
This is the first sentence as shown in L&M:
In the morning at the office, and after that [[my dining with Mr. Creede and seeing the Butlers ought to be placed in yesterdays account it being put here by mistake]] down to Whitehall, where I met with Mr. Creed, and with him and a Welch schoolmaster, a good scholar but a very pedagogue, to the ordinary at the Leg in King's-Street.
Note the [[]] means that SP has inserted this text in the margin.

vincent on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

...In the afternoon (but this is a mistake, for it was yesterday in the afternoon) ..." I wonder when did he revise this entry, any Wheatly comments?
"...This morning my Lord took leave of the House of Commons, and had the thanks of the House for his great services to his country..." Is this read as When he made to move to exit, that the House did.. or When after he had arrived in the chambers, that the house...

Paul Brewster on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

This morning my Lord took leave of the House of Commons
According to L&M: SP got this wrong as well: "Sandwich resigned from the Commons on the 24th, not the 25th."

vincent on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

Paul thanks for the clarification;

martha wishart on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

two pubs and a beauty-no wonder he has the days confused

chip on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

Pepys does seem to get rather confused around Ms. Butler, obviously he deemed her beautiful and his attraction to her powerful. She melts the days together. I think she represents an anomaly for Sam as he is wont to dismiss people by asscociation (as so many of us). Witness today's introduction of the scholar via Creed. Pepys is bound to find something askew about him for his link to Creed. Ms Butler breaks this rule. Does the reference to being trimmed the first time mean he did not wait in line?

Mary on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

...being trimmed the first time....
I took this to mean that this was the first time that Sam had patronised this particular barber. Having just moved from Westminster to the City of London, he needs to find a new, local barber that suits him and this is the first one that he's tried. Perhaps he'll have to try others in the area before he finds the one that has the right touch.

Paul Brewster on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

The Gatehouse
We may have a bit of confusion here regarding the actual building referenced here. The Wheatley footnote: "The Gatehouse at Westminster was a prison. Perhaps they were friends of the keeper." The L&M Companion concludes an entry devoted to the "The Gatehouse, Westminster" with the following sentence: "The gatehouse where the 'pretty Madam' Frances Butler and her family lodged [July 25th 1660] was probably the gatehouse which commanded the entry into New Palace Yard from King St." The L&M locates The Gatehouse, Westminster at the "east end of Tothill Street near the west end of the Abbey."

A. De Araujo on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

"a good scholar but a very pedagogue"Does SP means to say "pedantic" rather than pedagogue? Pedagogue is not a bad quality unless SP feels that he is being treated as a child. Language Hat please help.

language hat on 26 Jul 2003  •  Link

"a very pedagogue":
Apparently "pedagogue" does tend to have a negative connotation. Here's the OED, which includes this very quote:

A man whose occupation is the instruction of children or youths; a schoolmaster, teacher, preceptor. Now usually in a more or less contemptuous or hostile sense, with implication of pedantry, dogmatism, or severity.

1387 TREVISA Higden (Rolls) VI. 7 Sigebertus.. ordeyned scoles of lettrure.., and assignede pedagoges and maistres for children. 1613 E. HOBY Counter-snarle 39 As if I were now to learne of such an Hipodidascalian Pedagogue to measure my phrase by his rule and line. 1660 PEPYS Diary 25 July, A Welsh schoolmaster, a good scholar but a very pedagogue. 1735 SOMERVILLE Chase II. 96 Cow'd by the ruling Rod, and haughty Frowns Of Pedagogues severe. 1875 GLADSTONE Glean. VI. v. 145 Without.. any assumption of the tone of the critic or the pedagogue.

Glyn on 27 Jul 2003  •  Link

"a Welsh schoolmaster, a good scholar but a very pedagogue,"

I've always thought that being an educator was good, but being a pedagogue was bad. To me, it has aspects of saying that something is true as a matter of fact, without feeling the need to justify it, however dubious it might sound. A bit like saying "This is so and don't argue with me because I'm an expert."

Or perhaps it means trying to teach something very dubious, using verbiage and wrongly-applied scholarship to back it up.

To me, a perfect example of a Welsh pedagogue would be Fluellen in Shakespeare's "Henry V" (he's always giving his learned opinions; and at one point claims that King Henry is really Welsh - or should be). (Also Alexander the Great because he comes from a country that is very like Wales.)

Did the great wisdom of us Welsh and our generosity in sharing our knowledge give us a poor reputation at this time?

(By the way, never say "Welch on a deal" - we consider it English racist slander, which is what you can expect from them.)

Nigel Pond on 29 Jul 2003  •  Link

Note to Glyn

Is that expression a reference to the Welsh? That had never crossed my (English) mind before. Do you know the context from which it is derived? Diolch yn fawr.

language hat on 30 Jul 2003  •  Link

to welsh/welch:
There is no known connection between this verb and the Welsh people; the OED says "Of obscure origin," and this is the general consensus. But Welsh people take offense at it, so it is best avoided in their company. Compare the adverb "niggardly," which offends many African-Americans; again, there is no etymological reason for the offense, but people cannot be expected to be etymologists, and concern for the feelings of one's fellows should trump scientific accuracy.

vincent on 30 Jul 2003  •  Link

Strange that the OED does not have it listed:
'mongst us illiterate under utilised heathern, it was source of great anguish, along with other PUT Downs that most under funded face on a daily basis, even in this politically correct climate.

upper_left_hand_corner on 30 Jul 2003  •  Link

"a very pedagogue"
One possible source of misunderstanding here for modern readers might be the use of "very". Read it as "true", "old" or "longtime" and it might make more sense.
I'm not sure if it corresponds exactly, but there is a usage in spanish that is similar --- "la muy bruja!", or literally "the very witch" is supposed to be understood as "the old witch!" This expression is used in La Vida de un Picaro (The Life of a Rogue), 500 years old but still quite readable, and perhaps Pepys might have read it, as it is the sort of shaggy dog story he would have enjoyed.

Glyn on 30 Jul 2003  •  Link

Not so, Language Hat: the two terms are completely different.

The linguistic origins of the word "niggardly" are completely clearcut, and any association with racism is spurious. That doesn't apply to the term "to welsh" - no-one has ever come up with any other origin. If linguists say that the most likely derivation of welsh is to do with the Welsh then I'm prepared to believe them - I've never heard of any other hypotheses. Like many other derogatory terms, it is unlikely to have a clear written origin.

Grahamt on 30 Jul 2003  •  Link

"To Welch/Welsh" is of 19th century origin, so irrelevant to Pepys. Btw, welsh is I believe Saxon and modern German for foreigner, which the ancient Britons were to the invaders. Most Brits are a mixture of anglo-saxon-norman-celt-viking-and-any-other-invader, so any "racism" against the Welsh/Irish/Scots/English/Shetland Islanders, etc. within these isles is spurious to say the least.

language hat on 31 Jul 2003  •  Link

to welsh/welch:
Glyn, it's completely unjustifiable to conclude from "no-one has ever come up with any other origin" (which is unlikely, by the way) that therefore the one you prefer must be true. It is very hard to tell where words come from. An example: are you familiar with a bird called the wheatear? Obvious name, no? Wheat + ear. Actually, it's originally "white-arse," which was reinterpreted as a plural and reanalyzed. There's no telling where "to welsh" came from; the first thing you learn in linguistics is to distrust the "obvious." Which brings us to:

"If linguists say that the most likely derivation of welsh is to do with the Welsh..." But they don't; that's why dictionaries say "Origin unknown" or the like. I understand why Welsh people dislike the word, and I respect their feelings; there's no need to try to justify those feelings by spurious science.

vincent on 31 Jul 2003  •  Link

what does btw mean?
Graham your comment opens up a big can of worms.

vera on 31 Jul 2003  •  Link

BTW

By The Way.

jamie yeager on 29 Feb 2004  •  Link

"A very pedagogue" again...
"Upper Left Hand Corner" has a good reading, above, complete with illustrative Spanish usage. Another way to think about it is to substitute the form "veritable" or "verifiable" for "very." Doubtless it is an intensifier applied to a negative sense of "pedagogue" as per "Glyn," further above.

Susanna on 29 Feb 2004  •  Link

"Very pedagogue"

I read this as "true" without even thinking -- probably a result of being raised with the phrase "very God" in church, until it was modernized to "true God" about 20 or 25 years ago.

Terry Foreman on 1 Jul 2013  •  Link

"According to L&M: SP got this wrong as well: "Sandwich resigned from the Commons on the 24th, not the 25th.""
To confirm L&M and this post by Paul Brewster see: http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Bill on 22 Jul 2013  •  Link

"a very pedagogue"

I agree with upper_left_hand_corner above about the usage of "very" and I think Sam is paying a compliment with no negative connotation for the word "pedagogue". He's a good scholar but a true instructor.

VERY, true; real; the same or identical. Adverbially, in a great degree.
---A Complete and Universal English Dictionary. J. Barclay, 1799.

Sasha Clarkson on 25 Jul 2013  •  Link

Good ... AND .... would be positive; good ... BUT ... is a negative qualifier.

There are similar terms to "welsh", meaning "foreigner, in several Indo-European languages. "Vlach" in Serbo-Croat means Romanian; "Włochy" is the Polish name for Italy.

The shorter OED (on historical principles) dates the pejorative "welsh" to 1857, and describes it as a racing term "to swindle out of money laid as a bet", and a "welsher" (1860) as a bookmaker at a race-meeting who does the same. Both terms of origin unknown.

Weavethe hawk on 26 Jul 2013  •  Link

Here's an interesting take on from where the expression "Welch", as in renage on a promise, originated. This explanation comes from an actual Weshman.

In Celtic culture there is no difference between this life and the next and the next life after that etc forever.
Therefore from a purely Celtic viewpoint, if I owed money in this life but for some reason was unable to pay it, then quite naturally I would pay off the debt in the next life or the one after that.
It has been understood by non-Celts (Anglo Saxons) that the Welsh therefore cannot be trusted - so the word Welsh/Welch is used to describe a person who does not pay up when the debt is due to be paid etc.

San Diego Sarah on 29 Jan 2022  •  Link

Dean Samuel Annesley, of Winterborn Whitchurch, Dorset, was John Wesley's maternal grandfather.

He presented this undated petition, which is typical of the special pleading by which those who had accepted place under the Protectorate, often tried to curry favor with the restored Charles II:

"To The King's Most Excellent Majesty.
"The humble petition of Dr. Samuel Annesley, Lecturer at St. Paul's, London, upon Lord's days in the evening,
"Most Humbly Sheweth, That upon your Majesty's petitioner's public detesting the horrid murder of your Royal Father, his refusing the engagemt. & his persuading others against it; his peremptory refusal to send out a horse against your Majesty at Worcester; his sending a man all night above 40 miles (your Majesty's petitioner being accidentally so far from his cure at that time) to seize upon the keys of the church, to prevent one that would, against his consent, have kept the day of thanksgiving for their success at Worcester; and upon his several times saying to some of note in the army, that God would discover Cromwell to be the arrantest hypocrite that ever the Church of Christ was pestered with, for he would pull down others only to make his own way to the throne; — upon these & such other expressions of disliking the powers then uppermost, to whom complaint was made, your Majesty's petitioner was necessitated to quit a parsonage worth between 200 & 300/. per ann., & get into the least parish in London, without any title besides the choice of the people. After your Majesty's petitioner's between 5 and 6 years stay in that small place, a person of honor would have given your petitioner a parsonage constantly famed to be worth 400/. per ann, but Cromwell presented another to it, upon pretence of the patron's being a delinquent. The parishioners soon wearied out Oliver's clerk, and the patron would again have presented your petitioner, whereupon he went to Oliver to desire him (for own him he could not so far as to petition him) to admit the patron's presentation. But your petitioner found that his former actings were remembered, so that Oliver refused him, and again presented another to this parsonage; yet to color his base injustice, the Lord's day lecture at St. Paul's London becoming soon after void, Oliver sent for your petitioner and gave him 120/. per ann. out of the 400/. per ann. formerly settled by Parliament for that and a week-day lecture, and this was all the reparation your Majesty's petitioner received for being prevented of 400?. per arm. which the clerk whom the patron presented, forthwith obtained and at this day enjoyeth.
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San Diego Sarah on 29 Jan 2022  •  Link

"Your Majesty's petitioner therefore most humbly craves, that seeing this Lord's-day evening lecture was constantly preached before the time of the Long Parliament, and your Majesty's petitioner hath preached it these three last years, that your Majesty would be graciously pleased to continue your petitioner in that employment. And your Majesty's petitioner shall most heartily pray that your Majesty may enjoy a long and happy reign here, and a crown of glory to eternity.

@@@
"Whitehall, July 25, 1660."
"His Majesty's pleasure is, That the petitioner may be continued in the said lecture, but for the salary His Majesty knows nothing of it, nor is obliged to pay it.
"Will. Morice."

@@@

A little later, when the Dean and Chapter of St. Paul's were restored to office, they no longer chose that a person of such uncertain principles should retain a place at the cathedral. There is, therefore, a second undated order on the petition, stating that:
"Whereas we did, by our Reference of the 25th of July, in the 12th year of our reign, upon the petition of Dr. Samuel Annesley, continue him, the said Dr. Annesley, as Lecturer at St. Paul's, London, upon the Lord's days in the evening; and whereas we have been since given to understand that the said pretended lecture is a service which was formerly incumbent upon the Dean and Chapter of our said cathedral; — we do hereby signify our Royal pleasure that, — the Dean and Chapter being now settled in our aforesaid cathedral, — the said Dr. Annesley be henceforth discharged from the said pretended lecture, and that the Dean and Chapter take charge thereof, as formerly. "Given, Sue” [stet]

[The 12th year of Charles II's reign was 1662/63]

https://www.google.com/books/edit…

@@@
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam…

Samuel Annesley (c. 1620 – 1696) was a prominent Puritan and nonconformist pastor, best known for the sermons he collected as the series of Morning Exercises in the 1690s.

Samuel Annesley’s father, John Aneley, was a wealthy man, but he died when Samuel was 4 years old. He started to read the bible at an early age.

In 1635, Annesley was admitted to Queen's College, Oxford, and earned his B.A. and M.A.

San Diego Sarah on 29 Jan 2022  •  Link

Annesley underwent Presbyterian ordination on 18 December 1644, having possibly already received Episcopal ordination, and became chaplain to Adm. Robert Rich, 2nd Earl of Warwick aboard the Globe.

On 26 July 1648 Rev. Annesley preached the fast sermon before the House of Commons, and around this time Oxford gave him an honorary doctorate. He was also sailing with Warwick in action against the royalist navy.

In 1657 Rev. Annesley was nominated by Oliver Cromwell as lecturer of St. Paul's, and in 1658 was presented by Richard Cromwell to the vicarage of St. Giles, Cripplegate.

He was presented again there after the Restoration, but was ejected after the Act of Uniformity 1662. SO THAT GIVES US AN IDEA OF WHEN THE THIRD DOCUMENT ABOVE WAS WRITTEN.

Rev. Samuel Annesley preached semi-privately, but his goods were confiscated for keeping a conventicle at a meeting-house in Little St. Helen's. By 1669 he was preaching in Spitalfields to a congregation estimated at 800.

Annesley died on 31 December 1696, his funeral sermon being preached by Rev. Daniel Williams, and Daniel Defoe, a member of his congregation, wrote an elegy on his death.

Annesley had a large family, of whom one daughter, Susanna, became the wife of the Rev. Samuel Wesley, and the mother of John and Charles Wesley, the founders of Methodism.

San Diego Sarah on 23 Jul 2023  •  Link

Also at Whitehall today:

When the monarchy was restored in 1660, Charles II promptly bought the vessel on which he had escaped from Cromwell after the second Battle of Worcester from its owner, Capt. Nicholas Tattersell, and renamed her the Royal Escape.
The King had her moored in the Thames off Whitehall Palace, and showed her off to important visitors. Perhaps she was also a reminder of the potential insecurity of his position, or of God’s providence in preserving his life (or both).

As for Capt. Nicholas Tattersell, Charles II treated him with considerable generosity.

On this day, 25 July, 1660, he commissioned Tattersell as captain of the frigate Sorlings,
and on April 20, 1661,commissioned him as the captain of the powerful Third Rate man-of-war Monck, in which capacity Tattersell served until 12 February, 1663,
after which he retired with a pension of 100/.s a year for life.

Lots more at
https://jddavies.com/2015/01/19/h…