Tuesday 31 July 1660

To White Hall, where my Lord and the principal officers met, and had a great discourse about raising of money for the Navy, which is in very sad condition, and money must be raised for it. Mr. Blackburne, Dr. Clerke, and I to the Quaker’s and dined there. I back to the Admiralty, and there was doing things in order to the calculating of the debts of the Navy and other business, all the afternoon. At night I went to the Privy Seal, where I found Mr. Crofts and Mathews making up all their things to leave the office tomorrow, to those that come to wait the next month. I took them to the Sun Tavern and there made them drink, and discoursed concerning the office, and what I was to expect tomorrow about Baron, who pretends to the next month.

Late home by coach so far as Ludgate with Mr. Mathews, and thence home on foot with W. Hewer with me, and so to bed.

19 Annotations

First Reading

vincent  •  Link

Based on Paul's annotation , the way I read this entry, is that it will be Baron's Turn to make the final approval of all Official documentation that requires wax to be poured and then holder of the Signet puts the seal of Signet to the melted wax. All these steps to ensure that no one Man can empty the Treasury of Funds. Please correct me, if I am in error:
b) The Treasury is low in Cash and it needs loans to keep The State on an even Keel: I know it is a bad thing to compare to days Money problems with those of the 17c, but in my ltd grey matter Certain problems stay the same,just the name of the crew and captain change;

JWBlackburn  •  Link

"Mr. Blackburne...and I to the Quaker's". Quaker Blackburns took up "plantations" in No. Ireland about this time, before moving to Penn. in early 1700's. Recall the relationship vs. Wm. Penn's father and Robert Blackburne at Admiralty...

Judy  •  Link

Re Quakers in (?)No. Ireland. There was a Quaker enclave and Wm Penn stayed there, at Castle Salem (Shalom) just outside Rosscarbery in Co Cork.

Michael Robinson  •  Link

principal officers met, and had a great discourse about raising of money for the Navy,

House of Commons Journal Volume 8: 2 August 1660 | British History Online
"Mr. Holles reports the State of the Debts upon the Navy, as it was represented to his Majesty Yesterday at the Council Board; and that, among other Inconveniences lying upon the Navy, Twenty-four Ships do lie in Harbour at Wages and Victual, through Want of Money to pay them off; which amounts to Ninety-four thousand Pounds; by the not Payment whereof, there is a growing Charge of about Sixteen thousand Pounds monthly."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/…

Daniel Baker  •  Link

Any idea why the Officers of the Navy Board would meet with Montagu at Whitehall, instead of at the Navy Office? Was this more convenient for Montagu, for some reason? I would have thought Montagu's new quarters at the Wardrobe would have made the Navy Office more convenient for him, too.

CGS  •  Link

That was when everyone be euphoric over NEW future, now they have seen the King is copying Papa I and spending the merchants money on the pleasures of life , and not every one be happy to "coff" up.
See 349 years later, same old.

Second Reading

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"Any idea why the Officers of the Navy Board would meet with Montagu at Whitehall"?

Methinks it SOP that his lieutenants would go to meet him wherever the General-at-Sea is or wants them to be.
The L&M Companion says of Mountagu's London quarters at this time: "he had an official residence in Whitehall Palace, from 1653 until his death, which included part (or probably all) of the gatehouse of the King St. Gate, and rooms adjacent to it on both sides of the street. He also had official lodgings (1660-8) at the Wardrobe...."

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Since Pepys mentions eating either at or with "Quaker's", and it's early summer time, this note about a back-story to the Diary belongs here:

George Villiers, 2nd Duke of Buckingham had spent the last few years in England, and is married to a Puritan woman, Mary Fairfax, the daughter of Cromwellian Gen. Thomas, Lord Fairfax. For the rest of his life, Villiers read many of the English people's desire for less orthodox religion better than the Catholic-oriented Stuart Brothers.

That doesn't mean that Charles II didn't try to find a way to please everyone, realizing that if things were easier for the Quakers, they would also be easier for the Catholics. But the Church of England followers were not going to agree to that ever, so Villiers played up and benefitted from his appearance of being the non-conformists' representative.

Around this time the wealthy widow Margaret Fell (who later married George Fox in 1669) wrote Charles II a long letter about the persecution suffered by the Quakers, and during the summer of 1660 she travel to London to meet with him:
http://www.qhpress.org/quakerpage…

Margaret Fell was an early spokesperson for the Quakers; she advocated for women to be allowed to speak in church and for better education for women, and wrote many widely-read pamphlets and books. We can consider her an early advocate for women's rights as well as Quakerism.
https://qfp.quaker.org.uk/passage…

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

John Evelyn's Diary – he and Mary Browne Evelyn live at Saye's Court, Deptford.

http://brittlebooks.library.illin…

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31 July, 1660.
I went to visit Sir Philip Warwick, now secretary to the Lord Treasurer, at his house in North Cray.

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so the man who makes the Treasury function is OOT today!

Sir Philip Warwick:
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

North Cray is a village in south-east London, within the present-day Borough of Bexley. It is 12.6 miles (20.3 km) south-east of Charing Cross. It lies on the River Cray, east of Sidcup and south of Bexley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nor…

Third Reading

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"Any idea why the Officers of the Navy Board would meet with Montagu at Whitehall, instead of at the Navy Office? ... I would have thought Montagu's new quarters at the Wardrobe would have made the Navy Office more convenient for him, too."

My thought was that the Lord High Admiral, James, Duke of York and the members of the Admiralty might have also been in this brain-storming session. And they are all anchored at Whitehall. Certainly the Exquechor was there, and so the money numbers might have been more available.

Then I saw James was presiding over the House of Lords today, along with Henry, Duke of Gloucester. Which doesn't mean he didn't leave for a couple of hours to meet with his navy men.

The timing is significant: The Supply bill was passed yesterday, so there were a lot of people sitting with their abacuses today, trying to figure out what the take might be next year.

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Later we will find out that Jemima, Lady Sandwich has taken the quarters at the Wardrobe for her territory. Husbands and wives at their level often kept separate establishments in those days -- they made dates to see each other. (The King and Queen also did this -- people had their own courtiers, accounts and territories. Very civilized.)
As Terry said above, Sandwich had very generous quarters at Whitehall.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

I checked the House of Lords' roster for today, and Sandwich is missing, so it's reasonable to think he is chairing this meeting.
Many other Lords are also missing -- they really don't want to talk about the Act of Indemnity and Oblivion, do they!

Consequently, the Speaker (Chancellor Hyde today) ruled that everyone who is missing without prior leave will be fined 5 shillings, to be given to the poor.

Check out Phil's links, top right, to the Houses of Commons and Lords. They help to fill out the picture of what's going on and the conversation topics of the day. Often they will dictate what Pepys is doing.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"That was when everyone be euphoric over NEW future, now they have seen the King is copying Papa I and spending the merchants money on the pleasures of life , and not every one be happy to "coff" up."

I was wondering what evidence CGS has for saying this:
Charles and James are single men, and I don't think anyone would have thought twice about their flings:
Charles' courtship of the beautiful, young Mrs. Barbara Villiers Palmer certainly wasn't worthy of much notice;
Yes, he had bought The Happy Return and moored her in the Thames where he could see her, which was a bit extravagant;
They are refurnishing the Palace and getting some new clothes -- no surprise there, I think.
Charles seems to be working and doing Kingly things for his cronies to me -- plus keeping his foot firmly up the backsides of the houses of parliament, who don't seem eager to hold anyone accountable for his father's death.
What have I missed?

john  •  Link

"[...] and had a great discourse about raising of money for the Navy, which is in very sad condition, and money must be raised for it."

Is this when P. realises how bad things are and the enormous task in front of him?

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"Is this when P. realises how bad things are and the enormous task in front of him?"

Probably not, John. Lack of funds has been a problem for years. But maybe that's why Pepys is willing to sell his place -- knowing about and being responsible for are 2 different things.

From the Diary we know that
the Army riots were different unpaid factions and generals trying to take control of the country;
the Army hadn't been paid for about 3 years; Parliament fobbed them off with a couple of month's pay. Lots of angry fighting men out there now;
the reason there was no work for Pepys to do at the office was because there was no money -- lots of bills, yes, pay, no;
and he certainly knew Montagu had trouble finding enough seaworthy ships and willing sailors for the Spring fleet.

He's been spending time with Robert Blackborne and the out-going commissioners. The sort of stories they have probably shared is this excerpt describing the workings of the Navy Board in 1657-8:

"The Victualing Office in London still occupied much of his time; the pursers’ accounts for the ships home from Jamaica were scrutinized with the greatest care, claims for more than half rations for prisoners of war disputed, and where it was stated that extra rations had been ordered by the commanders to be issued to the seamen as an “encouragement,” it was only passed after approval by the Navy Office.
"The State Papers of this year contain many notes of Bills of Imprest, at first for £3,000 every 2 weeks and later rising to £4,000 a week, on the order of Majors Bourne and Thomson and Commissioner Willoughby, for carrying on the work of the Victualing Office. This department seems to have been the only one able to obtain adequate funds, but the imperative need of a regular supply of provisions and the inevitable consequences of failing to pay the contractors, left no alternative but to keep the department in funds.

"The debts of the navy were now £100,000 and its immediate needs £300,000, but Parliament refused to grant it unless the control of the militia was restored to them, and Cromwell, utterly refusing to allow the military power out of his own hands, in a fit of temper, dissolved Parliament.
"Such a situation did not ease the difficulties or improve the tempers of the Navy Commissioners, who were at once the butt between the seamen and dockyard workmen and the administration.
"Pensions of the sick and wounded were always in arrears; the men in the dockyard were unpaid and frequently complained that they were unable to obtain credit for the necessities of life.
"Commissioner Peter Pett had been obliged to leave Chatham for a time to get rid of the clamor of the unpaid poor.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

PART 2

"Bourne was again at Deptford in January (1658), and whilst there was being harassed by the financial affairs at Harwich, the master shipwright continually forwarding the complaints he received, and asking for Bourne’s assistance. Receiving from the Admiralty a letter which roused his ire, he replied he would have waited on them had not public affairs detained him: “There are,” he said, “two bills of exchange for £714 drawn on you for cordage bought at Ipswich, and the contractors expect it. I am not accustomed to such language as I receive from you, and request an order for payment, and a bill of imprest for £450 for carrying on Naval affairs at Harwich, and ask it in the public interest.”
He was quieted for a time by the Admiralty instructing the Navy Office ... "
https://www.colonialsociety.org/n…

£300,000 then was many billions now? And things had only gone downhill since 1658.
Somewhere I have posted how much the Navy owed in 1660 -- but of course I can't find it now.

The vision of the Commonwealth was noble and worthy -- but things had deteriorated to the point they were so desperate, most of the power players were now willing to invite a King back, and agree to him making the decisions. Holding Charles II responsible for England's ills was preferable to another civil war.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

My guess at what this meeting was about reflects how governmental budgets are done today.

Parliament passes a Supply Bill -- which they did yesterday. This details taxes and revenue streams for the next fiscal year.

Every department submits its "To Do" list with guestimated budgets to the Chancellor of the Exchequor. He then puts together the nation's budget charting priorities.

The security of the nation depended on the Navy;
The security of the merchant fleet depended on being protected by the Navy -- otherwise no exports and no imported food;
The suppression of the Barbary Pirates was undertaken by the Navy -- and they also negotiated for the freedom of British slaves taken by them;
A weak Navy was an invitation for trouble from abroad;
And the ability to take advantage of trouble in other nations depended on the Navy's ability to respond.
So the Navy estimates would be the first thing the Chancellor of the Exchequor considered when thinking about the government's priorities. The Commissioners better mention everything they needed, with good guestimates.

The Navy Board and Sandwich, and probably the Admiralty men, are doing that today -- they won't get everything approved they ask for, but if they don't ask they can't get.
I suspect they also had to include interest on outstanding loans to the Commonwealth, which would be substantial.

Abacuses are clicking all over the Palace of Whitehall. (I don't know if they used abacuses, but whatever they did use, they were using them.)

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