Todd Bernhardt on 12 Mar 2004  •  Link

re: Collation

My dictionary gives one meaning of this as "a light meal permitted on fast days."

I wonder why John Hunt lost his job?

Glyn on 12 Mar 2004  •  Link

We got into a fascinating discussion about this the last time Pepys had a collation, on July 9th:

http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Yonmei on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

Why was Pepys so pleased that he'd been granted midshipman's pay? A midshipman, if I remember my Hornblower correctly, was the highest form of warrant officer - likely, I presume, therefore to be paid more than other warrant officers, but not holding a commission.

Hmmm - have I answered my own question? Was it impossible for Pepys, not holding a commission, to receive a commissioned officer's pay, but he was glad because he was being paid the highest rate possible for someone not a commissioned officer?

All speculation. Does anyone know the facts?

A. De Araujo on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

"why John Hunt lost his job" seems like he got his job through his wife's connection with the Cromwells,so...

Josh on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

Ye incipient concordance-makers: does Pepys only thank God when mentioning money?
Discuss.

Emilio on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

"why John Hunt lost his job"

Actually, it appears he got his original job at least in part through Our Sam: "After dinner I to Whitehall, where I met with Mrs. Hunt, and was forced to wait upon Mr. Scawen at a committee to speak for her husband, which I did" (http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1… ). From Paul Brewster (and L&M) for that day: "Robert Scawen (M.P. for Cockermouth) . . . had been recently appointed one of the commissioners for regulating the Excise. John Hunt either now or shortly afterwards held a sub-commissionership under him."

New commissioners were appointed on 24 Feb., but John will be back--"John Hunt was serving as a sub-commissioner for Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire in December 1661, and later [in 1666]." (L&M footnote for today)

vincent on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

'Why was Pepys so pleased that he'd been granted midshipman's pay’.
He was Sandwiches Secretary [and got extra for the those ghost employees too , the money came from the Navy too], and as such got paid for that position[see june third ‘60], now for a bit of double dipping, another income.
Besides that he got paid for executing special paper work too, “TIPS”.
re: thanks for the loot. ‘twas manner from heaven, some got lots, some got iou’s. No such thing as a regular guaranteed income,[ all were on peace work income or by the job duration] by the hr/weekly/monthly paid on time. Only self employed orange girls got paid by the submission etc. and that was cash and carry [ dirty word trade {tradesmens entrance etc.}].

Pauline on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

"does Pepys only thank God when mentioning money?"
Well, of the 20 mentions since June:
10 are directly about money
1 indirectly (God forbid his uncle remarry)
5 general stock taking, healthy and content
1 that the misfired pistols hits no one
1 asking for guidance
1 God forgive for reading French romances on Sunday
1 God forgive for stringing his lute on Sunday

Joe on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

Mentions of God
Pauline, you missed his Feb 26th asking for forgiveness...

Kevin Sheerstone on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

Yonmei - Midshipman

No, not a Warrant Officer (NCO), but an officer, ranking above cadet and below sub-lieutenant, at least in modern usage. (The equivalent Army rank is second-lieutenant.)

Kevin Sheerstone on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

More on Midshipman

I should have added, for our American friends, Midshipman = Ensign.

Sam is relieved that "they have cast me at midshipman's pay". In modern times, so far as pay is concerned, he would have been much better off had they paid him as a Chief Petty Officer.(Less social standing, but a lot more money!) I am not sure what, if any, ranks existed between common seaman and junior officers in Sam's time, but I know we have at least one poster who will perhaps set me straight.

Pedro. on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

Only self employed orange girls got paid by the submission etc. and that was cash and carry [ dirty word trade {tradesmens entrance etc.}].
No doubt the entrance old Charlie used when he visited Nell Gwyn?

Pedro. on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

"and with him to the Fleece, where we drank a glass of wine."
It seems a long time since Sam had, or gave someone, a morning draft. Is he slowing down in his old age, or is it a sign of mixing with higher company?

Yonmei on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

Kevin, I wasn't asking about modern usage: I was asking about Pepys' usage. In 1794, the US Congress created the American Navy and listed the Warrant Officers as the Sailing Masters, Purser, Boatswain, Gunner, Carpenter, Sailmaker and Midshipman. This was the same as in the British Navy of that time, as you'd expect: one modelled on the other.

So I'm wondering if Pepys is so pleased because a midshipman gets paid more than other warrant officers.

diphi on 13 Mar 2004  •  Link

Hey Vincent! I'm puzzled. What is a self-employed orange girl?

vincent on 14 Mar 2004  •  Link

Orange girl was one many of the people trying to sustain a life by going down to a market in the early hours of the morn: and buying wares to to sell to households, on the streets and elsewhere a buyer could be found and the Orange girl [Especially if she had some looks which the dandies of the day would part with loose change for a refreshment] found a good market at the theatre.
see pages 234-235 for an image, Liza Picard Restoration London, pages 137,138 for text.
still a popular way for getting a 'buck' to-day by the excluded ones.

Susan on 14 Mar 2004  •  Link

Information from online naval information about midshipmen and gentlemen.

"A midshipman originally was, as the name suggests, one who lived amidships, this is mid-way between the officers who lived aft and the men who lived forward. While training as an officer he worked with the men somewhat like naval cadets do today. The midshipman used to serve seven years on the lower deck and was roughly equivalent to a present day petty officer in rank and position. " (British site about the RN)

An Ensign is bit a like an original Midshipman in the Royal Navy. Before military academies, naval officers were trained at sea, and a Midshipman, who had few real command responsibilities and might only be a young teenager, was the beginning of the process. "

"One important thing that all officers have in common is that they are supposed to be "gentlemen." Today this may mean no more than that they are expected to be polite, self-controlled, and observant of propriety, not to mention morally upright. However, it originally meant rather more. Two hundred years ago, not every man was a "gentleman" just by courtesy. A gentleman, by English law, was a man with no regular trade or occupation. Now we might think of such a definition as specifying a vagrant, but it actually meant someone who lived off inherited wealth, rents, or feudal office (including the Church, which also meant Mediaeval Academia). This was an era when "amateur" was good and "professional" was bad -- since the amateur did something for love (amor), while the professional did something just for money. In the British legal system, barristers (i.e. those at the "Bar"), who plead in court, were gentlemen who did not accept pay (but received honoria by courtesy), while other lawyers were solicitors, mere professionals. In the military, "officers and men" meant those who qualified as gentlemen and those who might not. "My good man" is how a gentleman might politely address someone who was not. This distinction could have serious legal consequences, since in Britain gentlemen could not be impressed off the street for military service, but others could. In protocol, untitled military officers had precedence of rank, and were above plain "gentlemen entitled to bear arms," but were below even the humblest titled nobility, even Knights and Esquires. " (American site about the American armed forces ranks)

Kevin Sheerstone on 14 Mar 2004  •  Link

Yonmei- Apologies. I misinterpreted both your posting and the diary entry.

Glyn on 14 Mar 2004  •  Link

Emilio: "why John Hunt lost his job"
“Actually, it appears he got his original job at least in part through Our Sam: "After dinner I to Whitehall, where I met with Mrs. Hunt, and was forced to wait upon Mr. Scawen at a committee to speak for her husband..”

Could that be read the other way? i.e. The committee was investigating whether Hunt and others should keep their job, and Pepys was unsuccessful in persuading them not to fire him? I have no knowledge about this - it’s just another possible interpretation.

Emilio on 14 Mar 2004  •  Link

I hope not--

Mrs. Hunt's complaints above make it sound like losing the job is a more recent event. I hope he didn't lose the position 5 mos. ago, a blow so heavy that his wife is still talking about it, and that Sam is only be noting down the fact now.

Paul Chapin on 15 Mar 2004  •  Link

Midshipman and ensign
Just to add one more ingredient to this terminological stew, in American usage a midshipman is a naval cadet, an officer in training. Upon graduation the midshipman is commissioned as an ensign, the lowest rank of naval officer, equivalent to a second lieutenant in the army.

Rich Merne on 15 Mar 2004  •  Link

Poor old Sam, so joyful to be 'cast' at midshipman's pay; whatever way you look at it, a socially embedded inferior rank of the navy. His private humility is rather poignant. If he had been cast at 'jolly tar's', pay he would probably have accepted it without a grumble. It points up an underlying rather shaky self-esteem connoting my query on discussion page, 09/03/04 as to his never attaining knighthood. In spite of all his obsequiousness and overt acceptance in the company of the great, they still regard him parallaxically down the lenght of their aristocratic snouts. He is proven energetic, clever and assiduous, but above all, he is 'useful' and 'cheap to run'. No wonder he looks for 60l. as a gratuity. He privately felt he was worth it, and down the telescope, I think he was and more.

upper_left_hand_corner on 15 Mar 2004  •  Link

Susan, good information about midshipmen with respect to higher officers and common sailors.

A note about bunk locations. Since sailing ships generally point downwind, the aft accommodations have to contend with the least amount of odor.

Glyn on 15 Mar 2004  •  Link

ULHC: which is why, at least in the world's northern hemisphere cities, the western side (the aft) tends to be where the rich people live (since the prevailing winds tend to come from the west).

vincent on 16 Mar 2004  •  Link

re: Mid-Ship-Man, Low man in command chain.But there is a time when he has a Great Job, go and board a captured ship and sail her back to Safety, from the the Sailors Grammar. Perks!!!! http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
The whole command chain and job description for each man aboard a Ship.

PS on 24 Apr 2014  •  Link

Re: upper_left_hand_corner on 15 Mar 2004

"... sailing ships generally point downwind, the aft accommodations have to contend with the least amount of odor."

Aft, in naval terminology is, towards the stern (rear) of the ship.
Downwind; generally means the wind direction is from the rear(or aft) of the ship towards the front. Hence least odorous bunking in the aft.

Terry Foreman on 11 Jul 2017  •  Link

"From thence to Guildhall, and there set my hand to the book before Colonel King for my sea pay"

Edward King was one of the commissioners appointed to pay off the fleet. (L&M)

MartinVT on 9 Feb 2024  •  Link

Just a reminder that the last time we heard about Mrs. Hunt, was on Feb. 10 this year, when "one came to ask for Mrs. Hunt that was here yesterday, and it seems is not come home yet, which makes us afraid of her." Sam left us dangling on that one. Turns out she's OK.

San Diego Sarah on 3 Mar 2024  •  Link

Joh Evelyn's Diary today:

"13th March, 1661. I went to Lambeth, with Sir R. Browne's pretense to the Wardenship of Merton College, Oxford, to which, as having been about forty years before a student of that house, he was elected by the votes of every Fellow except one; but the statutes of the house being so that, unless every Fellow agree, the election devolves to the Visitor, who is the Archbishop of Canterbury (Dr. Juxon), his Grace gave his nomination to Sir T. Clayton, resident there, and the Physic Professor: for which I was not at all displeased, because, though Sir Richard [Browne] missed it by much ingratitude and wrong of the Archbishop (Clayton being no Fellow), yet it would have hindered Sir Richard from attending at Court to settle his greater concerns, and so have prejudiced me, though he was much inclined to have passed his time in a collegiate life, very unfit for him at that time, for many reasons.
"So I took leave of his Grace, who was formerly Lord Treasurer in the reign of Charles I.
"This afternoon, Prince Rupert showed me, with his own hands, the new way of raving, called mezzo tinto, which afterward, by his permission, I published in my "History of Chalcography"; this set so many artists on work, that they soon arrived to the perfection it is since come to, emulating the tenderest miniatures.
"Our Society now gave in my relation of the Peak of Tenerife, in the Great Canaries, to be added to more queries concerning divers natural things reported of that island.
"I returned home with my Cousin, Tuke, now going for France, as sent by his Majesty to condole the death of that great Minister and politician, Count Mazarine."

Elsewhere, Evelyn refers to "my cousin Tuke (afterward Sir Samuel)," but he does not call Col. George Tuke that. In my notes I see Samuel Tuke was the third son of a George Tuke -- but Evelyn never refers to Col. George Tuke as "uncle". Any Tuke experts here?
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

Without the Royal Society, Prince Rupert and John Evelyn probably would not have combined their complimentary interests to publish a book and create this new skill and business. This was one of the first "successes" we can award to the Royal Society. It was published as "Sculptura: or the History, and Art of Chalcography and Engraving in Copper..." (1662); this contains the first account of "A new manner of Engraving, or Mezzo Tinto, communicated by his Highnesse Prince Rupert to the Author of this Treatise". Prince Rupert, who had played a part in the invention or perfecting of mezzotint, wrote or co-wrote this part. The frontispiece "invented" (designed) by Evelyn demonstrates his limitations as an artist of the figure, unless he was badly let down by his engraver.

San Diego Sarah on 3 Mar 2024  •  Link

CONCLUSION:

As to Evelyn's expertize on Tenerife and the Canary Islands, I don't find anything about them in the early years of his Diary, nor a publication about them.

We've alluded before to the chaos at Oxford and Cambridge caused by the need to identify suitable Anglicans to take over the curriculum and governance of the colleges. England's universities were more chaotic than the parishes at this time -- the ministers were doing their best, and if the axe fell, it fell. The axe fell first on the universities.

San Diego Sarah on 4 Mar 2024  •  Link

ooops, I should have posted this one tomorrow! Sorry.

This Sir Richard Browne was John Evelyn’s father-in-law, the former owner of Sayes Court, and former Resident from the King in Paris during the Interregnum. https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

Sir Thomas Clayton MP, Warden of Merton College, Oxford = https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

Archbishop William Juxon = https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

Col. Samuel Tuke, Evelyn’s cousin -- https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

Cardinal Jules Mazarin (1602 - 9 March 1661) = https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

Miniatures - https://theframeblog.com/2017/12/…

Royal Society = https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
Tenerife = https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

Rupert and Mezzotinto = https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

Chalcography (from Ancient Greek chalcos, meaning copper, and graphein, meaning 'to write'), are engravings on copper plates used for printmaking and illustrations, although the term has also been used of engravings on any type of metal. In 1662 John Evelyn produced “Sculptura, or, The History and Art of Chalcography and Engraving in Copper” which contains a small mezzotint by Prince Rupert known as the 'Little Executioner': the first mezzotint to be published in England. https://www.rct.uk/collection/115…

Alter Kacker on 12 Mar 2024  •  Link

Reading Susan’s post from the First Reading, to be a midshipman — an officer-in-training — one surely had to be a gentleman. That surely appealed to Samuel’s status anxiety.

San Diego Sarah on 13 Mar 2024  •  Link

"... they have cast me at midshipman’s pay, which do make my heart very glad."

I think Pepys is happy about being rated at the midshipman's pay scale -- he's been looking for some extra money with which to celebrate the Coronation for a couple of weeks now:
https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…

It does seem like double-dipping to me.

As for having to be a gentleman first, Alter Kacker, everything has always been easier if you are a gentleman. I think a young lad at this time would need a Navy Captain as a sponsor, and being the child of a gentleman would make such introductions easier to come by.
This wasn't so true in the merchant navy (often referred to as "tars" if they were of the Republican persuasion, which most of them were): boys would be taken into the family business.

The Navy used to appropriate merchant ships when it came time to fight -- I presume at least some of the crew went with the ship, to represent the owner's interests? And if you were Vice Adm. John Lawson, you stayed in the Navy and didn't return to the exciting life of running coal from Newcastle to London.

Pepys and others will make changes in how Naval officers are employed after the Diary. Paying people to be professionals, even when they are not at sea, is becoming essential as the weapons and ships become more complicated, and required experienced personnel. (Actually, the rigging and the ships did not change that much, but the techniques of how to sail them better did develop, and it took years to acquire any depth of knowledge, competence and experience.) Part-time, conscripted and volunteer seamen just couldn't do it, gentlemen or otherwise. They could run the guns, fetch the powder, and hang onto this bit of rope when necessary, but there needed to be a core of experienced, professional, paid hands directing traffic.

San Diego Sarah on 13 Mar 2024  •  Link

Col. Edward King, a new name for my list of Parliamentary Committeemen responsible for disbanding the Army and the Navy:

On 4 Aug. 1660, Col. Edward King MP reported a bill to set up a disbandment commission.

On 6 Sept. 1660 Col. King MP obtained an order from the House empowering the disbandment commissioners to obtain assistance from the civil authorities, and was nominated to the commission. He was among those ordered to amend the instructions so that the garrisons should be disbanded last, and helped to manage a conference.

On 18 Dec. 1660, Col. King MP objected that the report by John Birch MP on the debts of the army and navy had not been authorized by the committee.

Excerpts from https://www.historyofparliamenton…
@@@

The Commissioners were Members of Parliament assembled for the sole purpose of paying off the Army and Navy in 1661:
This Commission included William Prynne MP
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
Col. John Birch MP
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
and the Lord Mayor of London, Sir Richard Browne MP
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
They all had brief experience in dealing with the sailors and paperwork, but have discovered it's not as simple as it appeared when they were just helping.

Now we can add Col. Edward King, MP as a member of the ‘disbandment’ commission https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

William Jessop was added as their clerk -- probably serving an equal to Mr. Hayter -- a step-down for a former Admiralty official (secretary to Warwick 1642-5 and to the Admiralty Committee 1645-53), after which he served the Council of State (as Assistant Clerk in 1653, and Clerk 1654-9, 1659-60). From this Parliamentary Committee's point-of-view, he's an educated person to employ behind the scenes to get The Navy Pay completed.
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…