Friday 3 May 1661
Early to walk with Mr. Creed up and down the town, and it was in his and some others’ thoughts to have got me made free of the town, but the Mayor, it seems, unwilling, and so they could not do it.
Then to the payhouse, and there paid off the ship, and so to a short dinner, and then took coach, leaving Mrs. Hater there to stay with her husband’s friends, and we to Petersfield, having nothing more of trouble in all my journey, but the exceeding unmannerly and most epicure-like palate of Mr. Creed.
Here my wife and I lay in the room the Queen lately lay at her going into France.
31 Annotations
First Reading
A. De Araujo • Link
"but the exceeding unmannerly and most epicure-like palate",now what kind of palate is that?
cindy • Link
"exceeding unmannerly and most epicure-like palate"
Sounds like Mr. Creed is a complete food snob who sends everything back at least once. I dated a guy like that once - very embarrassing.
Pauline • Link
Epicure-like palate
Try this older use of the word (from OED):
"One who gives himself up to sensual pleasure, esp. to eating; a glutton, sybarite."
Maybe he just really pitches in there and eats it all and with too much gusto and lots of reaching, burbing and slurping. Well, that may be bringing in my idea of unmannerly. Can't help but think of the "palates" in the famous "Tom Jones" movie scene, but without its joyful engagement of everyone at the table.
Josh • Link
Why choose? Cindy's take and Pauline's can be easily combined in the same person, for maximum offensiveness---the sort of bloke you never want to go to a restaurant with again. . . .
What exactly would Pepys have had had he been made "free of the town"? Is this like receiving "the key to the city," and just what do you get for it? Respectful attention? Shown round all the official hotspots? Gifts from the Welcome Wagon?
dirk • Link
For the record: philosophy in a nutshell
Epicure (Epicurus) was a Greek philosopher (341-271 BC), who saw the seeking of pleasure as the main goal in life. - And this is wat most people refer to when they speak of Epicure, or in this case "Epicure-like palate". - What these people forget is that Epicure defined "pleasure" in a rather unusual way: it was not to be found in the enjoyment of the various sensual pleasures to the largest possible extent, but rather in the abscence of any pain or terror. In order to obtain happiness he actually preached a simple life style: if you don't get used to an exuberant life, you will require less in order to feel happy.
Much more detail on:
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/e…
So, once more a huge historical misunderstanding...
dirk • Link
"free of the town"
In earlier times this would have meant exemption of some taxes, special judicial treatment, the right to join the local guilds and/or the city magistrate etc. In one word (or rather two words) "full citizenship".
In this case, late 17th c and all, I take it to mean something like "honorary citizen".
dirk • Link
Rev Josselin rides to town...
Josselin's diary, 3 May 1661:
"rode into London and saw the triumphal arches. stately. vanity, no rich cost in the front of one besides Heathenism (...) I had sad reflections on the vain flattery, the lord prevent villainous wickedness, but if surely it will not be sine fine. (...)"
Australian Susan • Link
Sam mentions no trouble from the sailors in being paid off, so presumably they were using real money and not paper or tokens. It seems a few days in the close company of Mr Creed is enough! Sam seems to find his company pleasant enough when it is just an hour or so every ten days or so. No mention before of irritation with him over habits.
vicente • Link
Only a maximum of 80 Tars and officers to be paid of, actual numbers would be far less. Of the roudy sort 30-40, not likely to cause much trouble, it being a Sea going place, some may have been able to be berthed quickly.
vicente • Link
"What a damned Epicurean rascal" or "Epicurean cooks Sharpen with cloyless sauce his appetite"
Mr Creed surely reminds SP of the plays he has attended in the past like
William Shakespeare (1564-1616)
Pom. He dreams; I know they are in Rome together, Looking for Antony. But all the charms of love, Salt Cleopatra, soften thy wan'd lip! Let witchcraft join with beauty, lust with both! Tie up the libertine in a field of feasts, Keep his brain fuming; Epicurean cooks Sharpen with cloyless sauce his appetite, That sleep and feeding may prorogue his honour Even till a Lethe'd dulness!
Antony and Cleopatra. Act ii. Sc. 1. [text]
http://www.bartleby.com/70/4521.h…
Act 2, Scene 2 The Merry Wives of Windsor
SCENE II. A room in the Garter Inn.
FORD: What a damned Epicurean rascal is this! My heart is ready to crack with impatience. Who says this is improvident jealousy? My wife hath sent to him, the hour is fixed, the match is made. Would any man have thought this? See the hell of having a false woman! My bed shall be abused, my coffers ransacked, my reputation gnawn at; and I shall not only receive this villainous wrong, but stand under the adoption of abominable terms, and by him that does me this wrong. Terms! names! Amaimon sounds well; Lucifer, well; Barbason, well; yet they are devils’ additions, the names of fiends. But Cuckold! Wittol! — Cuckold! the devil himself hath not such a name. Page is an ass, a secure ass. He will trust his wife; he will not be jealous. — I will rather trust a Fleming with my butter, Parson Hugh the Welshman with my cheese, an Irishman with my aqua vitae bottle, or a thief to walk my ambling gelding, than my wife with herself. Then she plots, then she ruminates, then she devises — and what they think in their hearts they may effect. God be praised for my jealousy. Eleven o’clock the hour. I will prevent this, detect my wife, be revenged on Falstaff, and laugh at Page. I will about it; better three hours too soon than a minute too late. Fie, fie, fie! cuckold! cuckold! cuckold!
http://www.shakespeare-literature…
Mary • Link
Freedom of the town.
Acc. to L&M footnote, this was a courtesy normally afforded naval officials and officers. Penn, Batten and Sandwich were already burgesses at this date and Creed was to be elected later in 1661. Pepys has to wait a bit longer.
David Cooper • Link
Sam does enjoy sleeping in the same room as the Queen. Sounds like a very modern idea to promote tourism ... or attract people to a stately home. I wonder if he paid extra for the privilege.
JWB • Link
Epicurian Creed v Rocky Pepys...
I wouldn't be too quick to judge Creed by Sam's postings. Their rivalry increasingly seems to be one sided. Creed's a man with some independant means who later takes off North and lives a full life with large family while Sam's whole life wrapped up in career at hand. This entry starts with Creed boosting Sam and ends with Sam taking jab at him.
Peter • Link
Creed and epicureanism. I prefer to read Sam's comments here as a a rather ironic reflection on his day's journey...."I travelled all the way from Portmouth to Petersfield with Creed and the only problem we had was with his appetite". Business trips can often throw together people who wouldn't normally seek out each other's company, and can lead to amusing comments like this.
David A. Smith • Link
"Here my wife and I lay in the room the Queen lately lay"
Lie, lay, laid, lain ... got laid?
For many days now I, the prurient voyeur, have been pondering what Sam means by 'lay with my wife' -- is it sexual, conjugal, bundling, or merely cohabiting?
Even the omniscient Language Hat provides no etymological help, but ... given Sam's multiplicity of circumstances and uses, referencing not only himself and Elizabeth but others low and high, I think it means "shared a bed with".
And *nothing* more, you dirty-minded 21st century peepers!
dirk • Link
"Lie, lay, laid, lain - got laid?”
This “laying” matter has led me to search through the diary entries so far for “lay/lain with” - and I came up with the following results:
24 April 1661:
“And after that I to my wife, who lay with Mrs. Frankelyn at the next door to Mrs. Hunt's”
22 April 1661:
“I lay with Mr. Shepley”
16 April 1661:
“to my father's and there lay with my wife.” (**)
14 April 1661:
“and lay with her [my wife] to-night, which I have not done these eight or ten days before.” (*)
16 January 1660/1661:
“The page lay with me.”
10 December 1660:
“Sir Chas. Barkley swearing that he and others had lain with her often, which all believe to be a lie” (*)
13 April 1660:
“I went and lay with John Goods in the great cabin below”
17 March 1659/1660:
“and Laud, her son lay with me in the best chamber in her house”
24 February 1659/1660:
“I lay with Mr. Pierce”
Only three of the above have (*) or could have (**) sexual connotations. So when David remarks that we should be careful not to read more into Sam’s entries, I tend to agree with him.
Judy Lorraine • Link
I don't know about anyone else, but after reading David's entry, my imagination is soaring!
Nix • Link
"made free of the town" --
Black's Law Dictionary (rev. 4th ed. 1968) gives the following definition of "FREEDOM OF THE CITY" (citations omitted):
"In English law, this phrase signifies immunity from county jurisdiction, and the privilege of corporate taxation and self-government held under a charter from the crown. This freedom is enjoyed of right, subject to the provision of the charter, and is often conferred as a honor on princes and other distinguished individuals. The freedom of a city carries the parliamentary franchise. The rights and privileges possessed by the burgesses or freemen of a municipal corporation under the old English law; now of little importance, and conferred chieflly as a mark of honor.
"The phrase has no place in American law, and as frequently used in addresses of welcome made to organizations visiting an American city, particularly by mayors, has no meaning whatever except as an expression of good will."
In Samuel's time, with the limited franchise and extensive licensing of occupations, this would have meant quite a bit. While these are not privileges he would exercise as a visitor, they were significant enough, symbolically or practically, that the mayor was willing to say no to a guy who plays a crucial role in a department that is critically important to the town.
Bradford • Link
Thanks, Nix and all, for making us "free" with your research. What a wonderful site, where you can ask a question and willing volunteers spring to your aid!
Rich Merne • Link
"Lay with" etc.
Sam also *lies with* other males and in circumstances which appear to be outside of the context of "lay, *at*, Mr. So and So's. So; (that's three so and sos and one cry for help) does Sam have any problem with sharing the actual 'scratcher' with another man? I'm of the mind that he doesn't and that in his time this would have been a frequent and unremarkable matter. I feel that most (being one, I can only speak for my side of the fence), men today would *prefer not* if at all avoidable.
Australian Susan • Link
Same sex bed sharing was very common into the 19th century either in public hired beds or in your own home, with relatives or friends. Jane Austen in a letter writes about sharing a bed with her friend Martha Lloyd and staying awake till past 2 talking. What she was drawing to the attention of her sister was their staying awake so long, not the bed sharing.
dirk • Link
Compare: the Freedom of the City of London
"Cherie Blair permitted to draw sword"
25 July 2006
Cherie Blair is to be granted Freedom of the City of London after being nominated by ex-Lord Mayor Sir Gavyn Arthur.
The granting of the medieval honour is one of the oldest traditional ceremonies in existence with the first freedom being given in around 1237.
Perks of the honour once included being allowed to herd cattle over London Bridge, permission to carry a drawn sword through the City, being allowed to be drunk without fear of arrest and the right to be hanged with a silken cord.
The prime minister's wife will receive a book of Rules for the Conduct of Life which was written by the Lord Mayor in 1737. [...]
© Adfero Ltd
http://news.viewlondon.co.uk/Cher…
Second Reading
Bill • Link
An EPICURE, one given to excess of Gluttony and Voluptuousness.
EPICURISM, the Doctrine of Epicurus; also the Practice of an Epicure, Gluttony, Excess.
To EPICURIZE, to live voluptuously.
---An Universal Etymological English Dictionary. N. Bailey, 1675.
Gerald Berg • Link
This is the Wheatley version of the diary. I take it as a given that any sex acts are axiomatically emended to Wheatley's specifications. That is -- no mention of sexual functions whatsoever but by way of ellipsis. So rest easy and let not your mind wander salaciously until L&M gives the go ahead. At which point -- have at it. Please.
Louise Hudson • Link
It seems to me that when Pepys says "lay with" he simply means he sleeps in someone's house. I doubt that the term "get laid" was even used in 1661. If he could read these annotations he'd probably be deeply embarrassed.
Louise Hudson • Link
In addition, we, in twentieth century USA, never called it laying or lying. We called it sleeping over. I wonder what people will make of that 500 years from now.
Chris Squire UK • Link
OED has:
‘Epicure . . 2. One who gives himself up to sensual pleasure, esp. to eating; a glutton, sybarite.
. . a1616 Shakespeare Macbeth (1623) v. iii. 8 Then fly, false Thanes, And mingle with the English Epicures.
a1674 T. Traherne Christian Ethicks (1675) App. 573 An Epicure is for his Wine, or Women, or Feasts continually.
. . Compounds attrib. and Comb.
. . 1661 S. Pepys Diary 3 May (1970) II. 93 The exceeding unmannerly and most epicure-like palate of Mr. Creed.’
‘Palate . . 2. a. The palate considered as the seat of taste; (hence) the sense of taste; a sense of appreciation of taste and flavour, esp. when sophisticated and discriminating.
. . 1600 Shakespeare Merchant of Venice iv. i. 95 Let their pallats be seasond with such viands.
1642 T. Fuller Holy State iii. xiii. 184 As soon may the same meat please all palats.
1712 J. Addison Spectator No. 409. ¶2 Every different Flavour that affects the Palate . . ‘
Chris Squire UK • Link
Louise Hudson is correct: OED has 6 phrases using the term ‘get laid’ in its sexual sense; the earliest dates from 1955. So do please stop finding sexual connotations in perfectly innocent diary entries!
‘1. all, adj., pron., and n., adv., and conj. 1987
... in the form of his ability to get laid ....
2. almighty, adj., n., and adv. 1998
...ighty God that he was about to get laid ....
3. cocksucker in cock, n.1 1962
...of you white cock suckers ever get laid ....
4. laugh, n. 1999
...Take four guys who all vow to get laid before their Prom night and ...
5. methyltestosterone in methyl, n. 1955
...Crossing the Atlantic Ocean to get laid . He can't even get it up wit...
6. nerdishness, n. 1987
... in the form of his ability to get laid .… ‘
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
Terry Foreman • Link
The Freedom of the City is an honour bestowed by a municipality upon a valued member of the community, or upon a visiting celebrity or dignitary. Arising from the medieval practice of granting respected citizens freedom from serfdom, the tradition still lives on in countries such as the United Kingdom, Ireland, Australia, Canada, South Africa and New Zealand – although today the title of "freeman" confers no special privileges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fre…
Third Reading
LKvM • Link
The best perk of having freedom of the city: "the right to be hanged with a silken cord." I do suppose that's preferable to having your head chopped off.
I was actually surprised to read about Mr. Creed's "epicurianism" and what we might call picky and unpleasant table behavior today. I, too, had a friend who sent food back to the kitchen and regularly embarrassed the rest of us at the table with his criticisms, so I can sympathize with Sam.
But since Creed is a Puritan (something I as an American associate with a simple life and simple tastes), I wouldn't have expected him to exhibit such delicacy or sophistication at the dinner table. Maybe I just don't understand Cromwellian puritanism correctly.
San Diego Sarah • Link
The Rev. Ralph tells us today that not everyone appreciated the grandure of Charles II's coronation (see the original for the layout which leaves me puzzled, and doesn't copy accurately here):
Diary of Ralph Josselin (Private Collection)
3.5.1661 (Friday 3 May 1661)
document 70013055
May. 3. rode into London and saw the triumphal arches. stately. vanity, no rich cost in the front of one besides Heathenism. there is this troubled me,
a statue of K. James -- in the middle above -- of K. Charles
prominent, a death
Divo Jacobo -- statue of Charles -- Divo Carolo
Imperium sine fine dedi.
divers sad particulars on the face of the arch. the High motto being En quodiscordia cives. etc. on the side of Charles. there was an effigy of stakes and faggots to burn people of the Heads of the regicides on poles. and warlike Instruments broken.
I had sad reflections on the vain flattery, the lord prevent villainous wickedness, but if surely it will not be sine fine.
reported the Portugal princess will become protestant and go to Chapel with the King: a Spaniard protestant.
@@@
"a Spaniard protestant." -- Portugal had been free of Spanish rule for about 30 years; I guess he was being ironic?