Wednesday 21 August 1661

This morning by appointment I went to my father, and after a morning draft he and I went to Dr. Williams, but he not within we went to Mrs. Terry, a daughter of Mr. Whately’s, who lately offered a proposal of her sister for a wife for my brother Tom, and with her we discoursed about and agreed to go to her mother this afternoon to speak with her, and in the meantime went to Will. Joyce’s and to an alehouse, and drank a good while together, he being very angry that his father Fenner will give him and his brother no more for mourning than their father did give him and my aunt at their mother’s death, and a very troublesome fellow I still find him to be, that his company ever wearys me. From thence about two o’clock to Mrs. Whately’s, but she being going to dinner we went to Whitehall and there staid till past three, and here I understand by Mr. Moore that my Lady Sandwich is brought to bed yesterday of a young Lady, and is very well. So to Mrs. Whately’s again, and there were well received, and she desirous to have the thing go forward, only is afeard that her daughter is too young and portion not big enough, but offers 200l. down with her. The girl is very well favoured, and a very child, but modest, and one I think will do very well for my brother: so parted till she hears from Hatfield from her husband, who is there; but I find them very desirous of it, and so am I. Hence home to my father’s, and I to the Wardrobe, where I supped with the ladies, and hear their mother is well and the young child, and so home.

21 Annotations

First Reading

Louis  •  Link

"The girl is very well favoured, and a very child,"

---in her deportment, and understanding, more than her chronological age? Discuss.

A. De Araujo  •  Link

"a proposal for her sister for a wife for my brother"
No romanticism here; very practical people; all the family involved.

dirk  •  Link

"morning draft"

The "morning draught/draft" has been extensively dicussed in the background info, but it's interesting to know that there also existed something called "posset" - although I don't remember Sam mentioning it anywhere so far.

Posset: a drink taken before going to bed; it was milk curdled with wine. "In his morning's draught ? his concerves or cates ? and when he goeth to bedde his posset smoaking hot.” ? Man in the Moone (1609).

From:
E. Cobham Brewer 1810-1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

[Middle English poshet, possot : perhaps Old French *posce (Latin posca, drink of vinegar and water from potare, to drink; potable + Latin esca, food from edere, to eat.) + Middle English hot]

vicente  •  Link

RE: Romance: 'tis only for the lucky ones: basics first: food and ale to eat and drink, then loin clothe then a roof, then one can indulge in the finer points of living. Can she boil an egg? darn socks, 'tis a list that one checks off before running oft to having a fleete marriage .
"...the pangs of romantic adolescent love could expect no sympathy.... contracted for sound reasons of compatibilty and property than 'le coup de foudre'. As Hannah Wolley put it: 'of all the acts of disobedience, that of marrying against the consent of Parents is the highest. Children are so much the goods and chattels of a parent, that they cannot without a kind of theft give themselves away without the allowance of the that have the right in them...." p 173 Eliza Picard Rest: Lond: more ref: 159/160.
then page 224/232: summary the female was a chattel of the Male of the species. be it Papa or be it Le Seigneur[baron]if and when the Baron kicked the bucket then every thing changed.{see p 225}

Australian Susan  •  Link

"a wife for my brother Tom"
Sam is being all the sober and responsible person here, *but* he married for love, surely! No-one could describe his match as a good contract. Is it that now the Pepys family has more solidity in the world and therefore has to be more circumspect in making marriage contracts??

Mary  •  Link

"a wife for my brother Tom"

£200 seems quite a large portion to be offered with a potential bride for brother Tom; the Whateleys must be impressed by the prospect of a connection by marriage with Sam the Rising Man. Unless, of course, Mother Pepys’s initial fond imaginings of wealth to come to the family as a result of Uncle Robert’s death have been noised abroad.
This, coupled with news that Father Pepys is about to retire to the country, leaving Tom to run the tailoring business in London, might have been enough to persuade them that so large a sum could prove a good investment.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Tom Pepys has/had a speech impediment and seems to lack any of Sam's drive (though he's taking over what's probably a pretty good business, giving him some matrimonial value)-add in the natural shyness resulting from his difficulty, plus the normal custom of the day- and all encourages him to turn to successful brother Sam for aid. It is interesting that Sam makes no reference to his own dowryless marriage, though I suspect Mom and Pop Pepys make poor Beth's life a living hell by constantly harping on it whenever possible.

One wonders how Beth feels listening to the negotiation plans...Did she hopefully wait for Sam to ask Tom if there was anyone he might care for, allowing love as a factor?...Or did she put in a vote for the practical, perhaps feeling Tom was not of the same cloth as her Sam?...Was she pleased to compare Sam's risking fortune and career to win her or heartbroken to find him solely concerned now with what the girl could bring in?

vicente  •  Link

Thomas : He be 12 months or so younger than our go getter; he be male and 27 and foot loose and fancy free: and he be master of his own business soon; not a bad catch in normal circumstances {so he stutters or a bit dyslexic }. He be trade, not fancy like, still hard to find a young man who has his own roof, bed, sheets, and can afford a turkey and is connected to the betters, good looking girls way out of the mean streets of life, and not to be in service to some rake[downstairs or upstairs], for when she becomes a burden [eats,and needs ribbons too I don't doubt but earns nowt] to her pops then out of the house, remember her father is responsible for her til she becomes some other mans burden. Boys have a choices, if free can get apprenticed, or if good at latin can get into the church, otherwise its fend for oneself and let lady Luck be ones guidelines , no dole or helping hand.
Many a girl ended up in Ma Cresswells or the like there too, as pops did not want nowt to do with his brazen daughter hussey,she was eatin' 'weren't she'?[Still a problem for many girls in this modern age, in so many parts of the world.]

Pauline  •  Link

"...my Lord Hinchingbroke and his brother, and saw them go out by coach toward Rye in their way to France..."
Edward and Sidney, at ages 13 and 11, are off to be schooled in France. Any ideas as to likely school and how this differed from being educated in England at this time?

vicente  •  Link

Sandwich wanted the French lessons to be the real thing and to be understood by the continental peoples and not mumbled [swallowed]and of course Vesailles is a heady place to be.

Second Reading

Dick Wilson  •  Link

I do not understand why Will Joyce is angry. It sounds like he was being paid to mourn Aunt Fenner, but not paid enough. Could that be the case? Why would anybody pay him, and his brother, anything?

eileen d.  •  Link

Dick Wilson, I found this article on a site for collectors of mourning jewelry and related artifacts.

"...Samuel Pepys (1633-1703), whose diaries show a great insight into culture at the time, have a great insight into several funerals throughout his lifetime and the impact fashion and cost had in his life. Pepy’s Aunt Fenner died on August 1661 and Pepy’s father carried out funeral arrangements. As his father was a tailor, the family could not afford to purchase mourning for relatives, but instead tailored it themselves. The sentiment he wrote was ‘all in mourning, doing him the greatest honour, the world believing that he did give us it.’ ..."

http://artofmourning.com/2014/11/…

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"The girl is very well favoured, and a very child, but modest, and one I think will do very well for my brother"

This proposal was still alive two years later, but came to nothing. Wheatley appears to have been a tradesman and may have been a distant relative of Pepys. (L&M note)

Third Reading

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

From Sandwich's log, near Malaga:

August 21. Wednesday. In the afternoon I set sail bound for Tetuan with the 3 other great ships, and the 2 men of war ketches, leaving the Colchester and Augustine to convoy to Lisbon 2 small merchant pinks and our own small ketches.
In the evening we met 3 sail of Englishmen bound for Malaga, the Olive Branch one, whose master came on board and told me that he came from London the 3 of August and out of the Downs the 6 of August, where were 16 sail of the King's ships said to be bound for Lisbon.
He said that Major Holmes was come into the river of Thames from Gambia.
He said he met a ketch and 2 vessles with horses off the Burlings that were bound for Lisbon.

The wind was all this day as it had been ever since I came into Fuengirola Bay, about W.S.W.

Copied from
The Journal of Edward Mountagu,
First Earl of Sandwich
Admiral and General-at-Sea 1659 - 1665

Edited by RC Anderson
Printed for the Navy Records Society
MDCCCCXXIX

Section III - Mediterranean 1661/62

@@@

Tetuan, Morocco
https://www.britannica.com/place/…
Lisbon
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
Malaga
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
The Downs
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
Major Holmes -- the highlights of Capt. Robert Holmes' trip to Gambia
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
Burlings
https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…
For the export of horses by Charles II
https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…
Fuengirola Bay is located between Malaga and Marbella.

Cynara  •  Link

Possibly a lucky miss for the girl, as Tom does not seem to have been much of a catch, except for his solid and rising family.

I’d never really connected the dots between the bequests (except for the amounts specified for mourning rings) and the costs of the public show of black clothes, etc. It’s an interesting point! It sounds like it was an understood aspect of bequests - if someone’s a near enough relation that they’re supposed to mourn, they’d expect the cost to be offset by the deceased.

Sparing a thought for Lady Sandwich: her husband a world away, her eldest son lately extremely ill, and her days away from giving birth! I hope she had family around her.

Awanthi Vardaraj  •  Link

Considering Tom died in 1664 leaving behind debts of £300 and an illegitimate child called Elizabeth who was born to his maid, it's just as well that this marriage to this young lass did not happen.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

It's fine to read ahead, Awanthi Vardaraj, but why spoil the story for people reading the posts as a Diary by sharing details like this?

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Today the two Ambassadors Extraordinary, Angelo Correr and Michiel Morosini, write again to the Doge and Senate.

Before taking leave of the king we repeatedly met the foreign ministers here, except Florence, who did not show himself on account of his youth and extreme inexperience. He is the son of the late Resident Salvetti, born here, and he has never left the country to learn other tongues or customs.

We had occasion to speak with the Spanish ambassador, but have nothing further to add about him.
The Spanish Ambassador to London, Carlos, Baron de Watteville AKA de Batteville, or Vatteville https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

The French ambassador assured us of his king's determination to assist the common cause, and as he depended much on the late Cardinal Mazarini, would fain persuade us that after the establishment of peace his sole object will be to seek glory by some great undertaking against the Turks, of whom the Cardinal made particular mention in his will.
We replied suitably, referring to the great hopes you had ever placed in the Most Christian Crown.
French Ambassador Godefroy, Comte d'Estrades
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
The Most Catholic Majesty was the King of Spain.
The Most Christian Majesty was the King of France.

With the Dutch ambassadors, with whom we were charged to make overtures for resuming the ancient correspondence, we had two long and very confidential interviews.
They showed great cordiality and spoke of the desire of the States to renew correspondence. They gave several reasons for this and declared they were ready to do all that was becoming. We assured them on our side of the uninterrupted regard of the Senate which was always ready to renew relations. One of the ambassadors, not favouring the interchange of embassies, permitted himself to say that they would be the first to fulfil their duty, but he would not commit himself farther. Hence we infer that what we did not ratify will be confirmed by your Excellencies, in the certainty of receiving entire satisfaction. ...
The Dutch Ambassadors -- I have no idea who followed Willem Nieupoort. Help anyone?

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

The king went in state to parliament only on Tuesday last.
He examined all the bills presented to him and thought fit to approve most of them in a well weighed speech.
One act of importance in his favour was passed touching the army which for the future is to depend absolutely on him, for the selection of officers and for its increase or diminution.

Meanwhile as the monthly revenue of about a million francs, or 500,000 of our Venetian ducats here, assigned to the king for all expenses, public and private, including the fleet and the garrisons of Dunkirk and Mardyke, do not suffice, as shown by the notes delivered to the treasurer, who at the end of the year reports a deficit of three millions, and as parliament cannot appoint other funds to meet them, it again has recourse to a benevolence to be given to his Majesty next month.
From the nobles individually this is not to exceed 400l. or 200l. from others, and this is already being promptly paid.
The Lord Treasurer was Thomas Wriothesley, 4th Earl of Southampton
https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

CONCLUSION:

At the last sittings of the Lower House it was proposed to make search for those who circulate scandalous prints, many of which are in private houses. But the peers, in view of their privileges, refused to submit their houses to search, and as the commons wished the search to be general, the bill remains in suspense. (fn. 9)
FOOTNOTE 9. The bill for regulating unlicensed and disorderly printing passed its third reading on 27 July. The Lords inserted an amendment exempting the houses of peers from search for such papers. The Commons refused to accept the amendment, and the Houses were unable to agree after two conferences. Journals of the House of Commons, Vol. viii., pp. 314–5. Journals of the House of Lords, Vol. xi., pp. 326–7. The matter stood over until the following year.

The point seems to concern the king more than any one else and some one remarked to him in jest that parliament was composed of beardless members, inferring that they ought to be changed.
But the king, who has it completely at his beck and call (che lo ha tullo da se dipendente) and wishes it to continue, replied, no less wittily, that if they had no beards it was necessary to give them time to grow, showing that there are still turbulent men who are also very audacious.

The Secretary of State has just sent us a note from the chancellor earnestly desiring your Serenity to direct that the promises repeatedly made to Galileo concerning the payment of his credits, may have effect.

[This must refer to Thomas Galilee, Capt. of the Relief.
In a letter of 6/16 April, 1661, the Amb. to the Ottoman Empire 1660-9, Heneage Finch, 2nd Earl of Winchilsea, says he has obtained the release of 3 slaves, but clearly Galilee was not one of them. Hist. MSS. Comm. Finch Papers Vol. i, page 110. https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl… ]

Further the merchants here, who trade in the Levant ask that it may be notified to your Serenity that as the currant trade keeps decreasing, it would be for the public interest to encourage it by taking care that in addition to the public duties, it be not crushed by other burdens, which have hitherto greatly interfered with it, and more than ever at this time. We mention this as in duty bound.
London, 21 August, 1661.
[Italian.]

FROM 'Venice: August 1661', in Calendar of State Papers Relating To English Affairs in the Archives of Venice, Volume 33, 1661-1664, ed. Allen B Hinds( London, 1932), British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk…

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