Saturday 1 November 1662

Up and after a little while with my workmen I went to my office, and then to our sitting all the morning. At noon with Mr. Creede, whom I found at my house, to the Trinity House, to a great dinner there, by invitacion, and much company. It seems one Captain Evans makes his Elder Brother’s dinner to-day. Among other discourses one Mr. Oudant, secretary to the late Princesse of Orange, did discourse of the convenience as to keeping the highways from being deep, by their horses, in Holland (and Flanders where the ground is as miry as ours is), going in their carts and, waggons as ours in coaches, wishing the same here as an expedient to make the ways better, and I think there is something in it, where there is breadth enough.

Thence to my office, sent for to meet Mr. Leigh again; from Sir H. Bennet. And he and I, with Wade and his intelligencer and labourers, to the Tower cellars, to make one tryall more; where we staid two or three hours digging, and dug a great deal all under the arches, as it was now most confidently directed, and so seriously, and upon pretended good grounds, that I myself did truly expect to speed; but we missed of all: and so we went away the second time like fools. And to our office, whither, a coach being come, Mr. Leigh goes home to Whitehall; and I by appointment to the Dolphin Tavern, to meet Wade and the other, Captn. Evett, who now do tell me plainly, that he that do put him upon this is one that had it from Barkestead’s own mouth, and was advised with by him, just before the King’s coming in, how to get it out, and had all the signs told him how and where it lay, and had always been the great confident of Barkestead even to the trusting him with his life and all he had. So that he did much convince me that there is good ground for what we go about. But I fear it may be that he did find some conveyance of it away, without the help of this man, before he died. But he is resolved to go to the party once more, and then to determine what we shall do further. So we parted, and I to my office, where after sending away my letters to the post I do hear that Sir J. Minnes is resolved to turn part of our entry into a room and to divide the back yard between Sir W. Pen and him, which though I do not see how it will annoy me much particularly, yet it do trouble me a little for fear it should, but I do not see how it can well unless in his desiring my coming to my back stairs, but for that I shall do as well as himself or Sir W. Pen, who is most concerned to look after it.

38 Annotations

First Reading

Bradford  •  Link

"the convenience as to keeping the highways from being deep, by their horses, in Holland (and Flanders where the ground is as miry as ours is), going in their carts and, waggons as ours in coaches, wishing the same here as an expedient to make the ways better, and I think there is something in it, where there is breadth enough."

If anyone else thinks there's something in it, and can explain it as to make it clear, many of us would be grateful.

Pedro  •  Link

“and Flanders where the ground is as miry as ours is”

Fitting that Sam should mention this on the first day of November, some 250 odd years before we should loose so many men in those miry “Flanders Fields”.

Terry F  •  Link

Is Oudant proposing elevating roadbeds, which Pepys finds promising "where [the right of way has] breadth enough" to make that possible?

A.Hamilton  •  Link

“the convenience as to keeping the highways from being deep"

It is puzzling. One thought: perhaps Oudant is proposing separate parallel tracks for carts, coaches etc. (which make the miry roads deeply rutted) and men and horses, and that Pepys thinks it would work "where there is breadth enough" in the right of way.

dirk  •  Link

"the convenience as to keeping the highways from being deep"

I think the main point here is that roads that are not hardened in any way tend to deepen when used a lot, eventually becomming "hollow". Such hollow roads get filled up with water when it rains, and become "miry", soggy.

This argument may imply elevated roadbeds, although this is not explicitly mentioned here. It would certainly imply doing something against further "hollowing" - presumably by making the roads harder and less susceptible to wear.

CGS  •  Link

It be called "ruts"["...keeping the highways from being deep...] made by cart wheels for those that have never suffered the mud, mud, glorious mud,... and ruts they be . As younster we used to use our old nag to drag them their foreigners from London town [fancy horse scary noise jalopeys] out of the ruts, as the ladies did not enjoy mucky feet.The roads,other than the Roman leftovers had no firm foundations and each local rural council were responsible for the upkeep and as London town did not like pay a decent pay for goods there be none left over for maintainance after graft.
Note at this time the main routes followed the engineered highways of the 1200 years before.

chris  •  Link

There were tales from France around this time (Diary of St. Simon, I think) of highway drownings from capsized coaches on country roads.

Michael Robinson  •  Link

Roads -- "The Condition of England"

Below is a link to the section "Difficulty of Travelling — Badness of the Roads" in Macaulay's famous Chapter III "The Condition of England in 1685." The whole chapter is one of the great glories of English expository prose that can be wallowed in quite swinishly, even if not of his Whig persuasion.

http://www.strecorsoc.org/macaula…

Linda  •  Link

In Paris, there is an area called the Marais, meaning swamp, which, being on the Seine, was once very marshy. The well known street, Rue du Rivoli, now lined with hotels and gift shops, was once an elevated road through this area. It is interesting to walk around there and think of the marshy mess it once was before the priests in the area filled it in and built it up. I often imagine what the narrow winding streets were like in the area as well without paving or sewage systems.

Mary  •  Link

"in Holland and Flanders"

The L&M note here glosses this proposal as as suggestion that carts and wagons should harness their horses to work abreast, like coach-horses, rather than in tandem as was the usual habit in England. Such a stratagem might, in time, bring about a lessening of the rate of deterioration upon any given road, but would be unlikely to produce spectacularly improving results.

Mary  •  Link

"my coming to my backstairs"

L&M reads:" unless in hindering my coming to my backstairs.." which makes a deal better sense than "in desiring my coming to my backstairs.."

Xjy  •  Link

This entry a mess!
The most miry prose Sam has written so far!!

language hat  •  Link

"I myself did truly expect to speed"

"Speed" here has its original sense: 'To succeed or prosper; to meet with success or good fortune; to attain one's purpose or desire' (OED). Cf. Bunyan: "Wouldst thou be a man that would pray and prevail? Why, pray to God in the faith of the merits of Christ, and speed."

language hat  •  Link

"This entry a mess!"

I disagree, though it would of course be more immediately intelligible (like other long entries) if it were paragraphed. But it's only got a few sections, each clear in itself:

1) "Up and after a little while with my workmen I went to my office, and then to our sitting all the morning."

2) Highways: "At noon with Mr. Creede, whom I found at my house, to the Trinity House... Among other discourses one Mr. Oudant, secretary to the late Princesse of Orange, did discourse of the convenience as to keeping the highways from being deep... and I think there is something in it, where there is breadth enough."

3) Digging for gold: "Thence to my office, sent for to meet Mr. Leigh again; from Sir H. Bennet. And he and I, with Wade and his intelligencer and labourers, to the Tower cellars, to make one tryall more... But he is resolved to go to the party once more, and then to determine what we shall do further."

4) The Minnes saga: "So we parted, and I to my office, where after sending away my letters to the post I do hear that Sir J. Minnes is resolved to turn part of our entry into a room... but for that I shall do as well as himself or Sir W. Pen, who is most concerned to look after it."

Clear now? (And does the Tower story remind anyone else of Geraldo Rivera's letdown with the "buried treasure"?)

Bradford  •  Link

"carts and wagons should harness their horses to work abreast, like coach-horses, rather than in tandem"

It's been so long since I plowed the back 40 with the old pair of mules that I've forgotten the distinction between "abreast" and "in tandem." They both sound like side-by-side to me.

Geraldo follows in a noble tradition, does he not, L. Hat, and no doubt will not be the last of his line.

A Hamilton  •  Link

tandem, OED:
(examples ommited)

1. a. A two-wheeled vehicle drawn by two horses (or other beasts of draught) harnessed one before the other.

b. transf. A pair of carriage-horses harnessed one before the other. Also fig.

Jeannine  •  Link

Langauge Hat, too true, but, Geraldo...UGH! He's from the school of better to remain silent and thought a fool then to open one's mouth and remove all doubt......At least after looking for fool's gold Sam won't end up doing news reports from hurricane locations and telling us it's windy out! He will still have a life, a career and the ability to report vis a vis the diary with style.

language hat  •  Link

tandem:
This comes from a scholarly joke; in the OED's words: "L[atin] tandem 'at length' (of time) used punningly."

A. De Araujo  •  Link

"and so we went away the second time like fools"
Geraldo Rivera never felt like a fool, even when he was kicked out of Iraq.

Clement  •  Link

Digging in the cellar.
Geraldo will no doubt find this reference on his weekly google search for his own name, and now include citation of his "work" on the "prestigious Pepysdiary.com" site.
The misadventure at hand reminded me more of "The Red-headed League" by Conan-Doyle. At least Bennett, Wade, Pepys and co. could be laying sewer pipe so the excavation wasn't a complete waste (no pun intended...well, maybe).

Australian Susan  •  Link

Princess of Orange
Charles's aunt, who died whilst celebrating his Restoration.
See http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search… for portraits.
***
Sam's house
The wonderful engraving (to which there is a link in yesterday's entry) makes much sense of what Sam's house (and the others looked like), but does it mean that the narrow way around the mansard windows (have a look at the picture) is the walk round the leads Sam frequently refers to? Rather narrow and unsafe and insalubrious.

Terry F  •  Link

Walking on the leads

Aussie Susan, I took it that the surface in question was the flat one on the very top, but I don't know exactly where the (now closed) access was....
http://www.pepysdiary.com/static/…

Terry F  •  Link

Phil, posting dittography due to the rejection of the first due to "malicious content"
--
well perhaps -- you can see how much less offensive the second post is.

Australian Susan  •  Link

Malicious? Well, 'tis obvious - abbrieviating Australian to a mere colloquial "Aussie" Tsk. Tsk.

Australian Susan  •  Link

Seriously - I took the building in the middle of the picture with the flat bit on top to be the actual offices and the surrounding U shaped section the houses and I thought the access to the "leads" was from the houses somehow onto the roofs of the houses? The descriptions we get from the Diary don't seem to square up with what we are looking at.

dirk  •  Link

"The descriptions we get from the Diary don’t seem to square up with what we are looking at."

Susan, might 1666 have something to do with this?

CGS  •  Link

The "leads" be that lead [led] part of the roof that seals the wall to roof and allowing water to go down the guttering [water] thereby being rather narrow [3-4 feet]. Flat roofs where not a good feature in the inclement weather of the London, rooves would rot away very quickly. There would be a walkway for many uses, besides peering in to ones neighbours private affairs.

Australian Susan  •  Link

[Spoiler Alert]
I thought the Navy Offices were not burnt down until well into the 18th century?

Second Reading

Bill  •  Link

“ I myself did truly expect to speed; but we missed of all”

To SPEED …
2 To have success
---A Dictionary Of The English Language. Samuel Johnson, 1756.

FALSTAFF
Master Brook, I will not lie to you: I was at her
house the hour she appointed me.
FORD
And sped you, sir?
FALSTAFF
Very ill-favoredly, Master Brook.
---The Merry Wives of Windsor. W. Shakespeare.

Weavethe hawk  •  Link

XJY This entry a mess!
The most miry prose Sam has written so far!!

XJY is a mess!!

Gerald Berg  •  Link

Look up Oregon trail ruts for an idea of what a bad rut would look like. 150 years later and still deep in the rut.

John York  •  Link

"in Holland and Flanders"

Thank you Mary for the gloss from L&M. For the first time I understood what was happening in Flanders. They made the carts and wagons have their animals arranged abreast to pull the heavy wagons and carts. The usual tandem arrangement leads to many hoof prints in a line and pulling heavy loads this churns the mud even deeper. There is no intention to build anything or to put stone down on the road. It costs nothing except in new harness. This is the way that carriages are harnessed in Pepys's and our time. Originally I, like xjy, thought this was a mess or that Pepys had not understood Mr Oudant.

Michael Robinson
Thank you for the excellent link to Macaulay's - "The Condition of England in 1685." I shall read more of this in time.
It was interesting that Macaulay in the piece you reference then refers back to Pepys's Diary.
"Pepys and his wife, travelling in their own coach, lost their way between Newbury and Reading. In the course of the same tour they lost their way near Salisbury, and were in danger of having to pass the night on the plain. (Pepys's Diary, June 12 and 16,1668)".

jimmigee  •  Link

I recall when traveling through England (esp, SW) that many old country roads were not only narrow but considerably lower than the terrain.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Well, Jimmigee, that's what happens when you have people, horses, cows and sheep tromping up and down the same trails over the hills for 2,000 years (the most westerly encampment of the Romans was near my home town of Torquay in Devonshire). Then farmers plant a hedge on either side of the sunken trail to enclose the animals, and you end up with a formidable "ditch" to drive through.

Mary K  •  Link

We call these narrow roads "sunken lanes. "There is delight in travelling along one of these sunken lanes on a sunny morning, when the bordering hedgerows and hedgerow trees cast a dappled shade on the roadway below.

Third Reading

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Thanks, Ruslan -- a good example of why Phil asks us not to make current events annotations -- 10 and 20 years later we have to annotate the annotations.

Log in to post an annotation.

If you don't have an account, then register here.