Shane on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"found that the Commanders did never heretofore receive any pay for the rigging time, but only for seatime, contrary to what Sir J. Minnes and Sir W. Batten told the Duke the other day" - What would be the reason for these chuckleheads to misinform the Duke? Also, "...it being very dangerous for the King that so many of his ships lie together there." reminds me of Pearl Harbor the morning of the 7th Dec, 1941... Thoughts?

dirk on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

John Evelyn went to the King's Ball...

"I went to Council at the R: Society: dind with our Councel: &c: at night saw the Ball, in which his Majestie daunced with severall greate Ladys:"

Would Lady Castlemaine have been among them?

in Aqua Scripto on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"...the Commanders did never heretofore receive any pay for the rigging time..." also enters the OED.
such a luverly word, to rig as said by Fletcher "1619 FLETCHER Wild Goose Chase III. i, That this Bilbo-Lord shall reap that Maiden-head That was my due; that he shall rig and top her!" OED
also used to mean cheating Cheats:
"1662 J. WILSON Cheats I. i, I ha'n't seen her since my last mischance; Must ev'n to her for new riggings" OED
1650 FULLER Pisgah IV. vi. 110 Let none condemn them for Rigs, because thus hoiting with boys.
So many womderfull ways to play with this word.

in Aqua Scripto on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

Samuell just wanted a chanter in the house and he dothe not Know that he hath one there all the time, but she slips away without revealing her talent. "...how she hears that by Sarah’s going to live at Sir W. Pen’s, all our affairs of my family are made known and discoursed of there and theirs by my people, which do trouble me much,..."

Pauline on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"...and theirs by my people..."
So Sarah is gossiping back and forth with Jane and Susan, maybe Will too. I wonder how much of the talk gets to Pen and his wife; seems none has made it to Sam's ears--Elizabeth's?

A difficult situation and understandable that Sam thinks Pen should have discussed hiring Sarah with him before doing it.

Ruben on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

Pearl Harbor?
why to look hundred of years later?
Only 5 years later of Pepys entry, during the II English-Dutch War:
"In June, 1667, de Ruyter launched the Dutch "Raid on the Medway" at the mouth of the River Thames. After capturing the fort at Sheerness, they went on to break through the massive chain protecting the entrance to the Medway and, on the 13th, attacked the English fleet which had been laid up at Chatham. The daring raid remains England's greatest military disaster since the Norman Conquest. Many of the Navy's remaining ships were destroyed, either by the Dutch or by being scuttled by the English to block the river. Three ships of the line were burned: Royal Oak, the new Loyal London and Royal James. The English flagship, HMS Royal Charles, was abandoned by its skeleton crew, captured without a shot being fired, and towed back to the Netherlands. Its coat-of-arms is now on display in the Rijksmuseum. Fortunately for the English the raiders spared the Chatham Dockyard, England's largest industrial complex."
(from the Wikipedia)

Tony Eldridge on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"the Commanders never did heretofore receive any pay for the rigging time"
My devious mind suggests that such pay may have been diverted into Sir J's and Sir W's pockets.

jeannine on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

Politics - office and social

Shane--Minnes and Batten lying to the Duke about monies paid-my guess would be some sort of corruption? but that's only a guess--not sure if anyone actually knows. What I am wondering is will Sam point this discrepancy out to the Duke, and if so, how to do it in a delicate manner???

Dirk--Good question about Lady Castlemaine. She is a standard feature at almost ALL Whitehall social type, activities. Around this time it's common knowledge that if you want the King to show up you had better invite her. Even men like Sandwich, who had originally been close to the queen and abhored the King's negligence of her, had "moved" towards acceptance and kindness to "the Lady" for career reasons. Around this time (actual date unknown, so not sure if a spoiler) one friend of the Queen's, Lady Gerrard threw a dinner party and did NOT invite the Lady. The King showed up with his wife, saw that the lady wasn't there and walked out (leaving his wife abandoned and insulting the hosts in the process) and went to spend the night with Castlemaine. At this point, he is in the habit of supping with Castlemaine every night and will have a period of about 4-6 months (some prior tot his) where he basically only spends more "formal" time with his wife.

A. De Araujo on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"taking her without our full consent"
They did fire her and probably did not give her any references to find a new job;it amazes me that they think that they still had the right to control her;somewhat better than Russian Servants but not much!

Robert Gertz on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"...found that the Commanders did never heretofore receive any pay for the rigging time, but only for seatime, contrary to what Sir J. Minnes and Sir W. Batten told the Duke..."

The commanders (sea captains? fleet commanders) get extra pay, Batten and Minnes no doubt get their 10-20 (or more)% rake-off from said grateful fellows. Very nice till our inquiring fellow started peeking round the old books.

I wonder if this helps to explain Batten's shorting on the men's pay earlier...Saving as much as possible to go to the captains' pockets and thus into his own? Or perhaps it was more direct...
***

You could still try and marry Sarah off to Tom, Sam...

"My brother did raise my hair today with his wife's tales of what she'd seen and heard at my house while in my service! I did stoutly deny all...Though some perhaps might be, God forgive my folly, true."

Good of Sam...So far...Not to start quoting her gossip of the Penns to his own people. Sir Will apparently didn't count on that when he took her on.

Martin on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

Sarah
What's bugging Sam is the gossip now rampant in the respective households about each other's affairs, made possible by the Sarah connection. Sam referred to this somewhat in his Dec. 31 year-end summary, saying in effect it would likely put some distance between the Pepyses and Penns ("we make ourselves a little strange"), who are after all neighbors at the Navy Yard. His suspicions are now confirmed and he resolves to let Penn have a piece of his mind. It will be interesting to see if and how he carries through on this. (Awaiting dialogue from some of our novelistic contributors.)

Terry F on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

Ever-studious about ships is Sam'l Pepys!

"I was among the canvass in stores also, with Mr. Harris, the saylemaker, and learnt the difference between one sort and another, to my great content" - thus complementing the lessons learned from examining the model with Anthony Deane, Assistant-Shipwright at Woolwich. http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…

A. Hamilton on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"signing the Treasurer’s ledger, part of it where I have not put my hand, and then eat a mouthful of pye at home to stay my stomach"

Meaning not entirely clear, but if Sam was signing off on accounts of which he had imperfect knowledge ("part of it where I have not put my hand), it may explain why he felt queasy.

stolzi on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"Let none condemn them for Rigs, because thus hoiting with boys."

One would love to know more about this phrase! Perhaps "hoiting with boys" was what a "hoyden" did? "Hoyden" is still a
(barely) living word, but "rig" in this sense is not.

stolzi on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"A mouthful of pye"

I was just thinking the other day that the "morning draft," whether ale or chocolate, didn't seem to include what we would call a breakfast, let alone a substantial "full English." And today Sam is so busy that we never hear of that important meal, Dinner.

language hat on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

hoiting with boys
OED:
hoit v. intr. 'To indulge in riotous and noisy mirth; to act the hoyden, to romp inelegantly.'
They agree with stolzi on etymology:
"There seems to be connexion or association of sense with HOYDEN: see esp. hoiting ppl. a."

language hat on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

"Meaning not entirely clear"

I think you're trying to read too much into it. First he signs those parts of the ledger he hadn't already signed (put his hand to); then (in an unrelated incident) he stops by his house to grab a piece of pie because he's hungry ("to stay my stomach").

in Aqua Scripto on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

Off subj. but point to those to whom wish to get best of culture, the OED be available, easy as asking Samuell for his meaning as he be source reference so many times.
hoiting with oed
"BEAUM. & FL. Knt. Burn. Pest. I. iii, Hark my Husband he's singing and hoiting. Ibid. IV. iii, There he..sings, and hoyts, and revels among his drunken companions.
1649 DAVENANT Love & Hon. III. Dram. Wks. 1873 III. 141 Young enough, But given too much to hoyting, and to barley-break. 1676 "
Thanks to the OED available to the hoi polloi. I be informed, but still pass.

Australian Susan on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

It's back to normal for Sam - busy all day with paperwork and practicalities and learning something new. And he hasn't even formally retaken his vows yet. With learning about sails, I think Sam has now covered every aspect of the hardware - timber, supplies, masts, rope. What he now needs is to visit actual sail-makers! There are probably examples in other places, but in the old parts of Brighton, you can see houses which have their original sail-maker's attics - very large rooms with a system to put the sails being made over a long sturdy pole running from one gable end of the room to the other. There were probably buildings like this around Chatham and Woolwich: house below, workshop above.

Australian Susan on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

Rigging time/Sea time

This reminded me of what happens with miners: they used not to be paid for time spent getting unerground and getting to the coal face. This seems to be the same: seamen not being paid for getting the ship ready for sea, just the time spent offshore. So, if there are allowances being made for paying for rigging time, where is this money going...... And yes, I think the interesting point to watch out for here is what Sam does with this interesting nugget of information!

Michael Robinson on 8 Jan 2006  •  Link

Pay for "sea time" only

Even in relatively recent times pay was for the duration of the voyage only; when the Titanic went down pay to the surviving crew terminated when the ship went down, and their pay books were so marked.

jeannine on 9 Jan 2006  •  Link

Sarah

"Awaiting dialogue from some of our novelistic contributors" --Martin--it'll most likely take Mr. Gertz to do that scenario true justice... so in the meantime I offer this to you...

Now Sarah she was quite a gabber
Oft times she was really a blabber
When Sam turned her out
She let his stories about
Now she’s a gabber, blabber and backstabber!

Terry F on 9 Jan 2006  •  Link

Gathering evidence of corruption by the old Navy establishment: first Penn (and William Wood) and now Mennes and Batten --

What will he do with this evidence? He already has powerful allies with similar and occasionally already shared concerns in Lord Sandwich, Mr. Coventry and Sir G. Cartaret (see The Pepys Sociogram http://www.pepysdiary.com/indepth… , which, however omits Mennes) to whom he can discreetly feed the info PRN (as needed) or as opportunity affords. Sam'l is meanwhile building his own credibility. Events look to play out rather slowly, but with very complex politics, as has been mentioned. (There are ways to shift established, powerful figures laterally, e.g., which are above SP's pay-grade to decide.)

in Aqua Scripto on 9 Jan 2006  •  Link

Lets face it; Knowing where be the misuse of power be, is an age old custom, He, Samuell, has seen the game played first hand by his Cousin, the earl and by Downing, along with hearing of others skating on the thin political ice. Keep notes for that auspicious time in ones own life to correct ones own missteps.
as "Alice's Queen " was to say later , wine yesterday, wine tomorrow , but no wine to day.

in Aqua Scripto on 22 Jan 2006  •  Link

[ST] Distaffe day all the lasses start their spinning.

Terry Foreman on 4 Sep 2014  •  Link

" and so to prayers and bed."

Is a reference to "prayers and bed" on a weekday anywhere else in the diary? Did Pepys dash this phrase off in a rush?

Terry Foreman on 5 Sep 2014  •  Link

"viewed old pay-books, and found that the Commanders did never heretofore receive any pay for the rigging time, but only for seatime, contrary to what Sir J. Minnes and Sir W. Batten told the Duke the other day."

Cf. Pepys to Coventry, 7 January: *Further Corr.*, pp. 2-5., Pepys had searched over 100 paybooks and proved that, until the First Dutch War, commanders (Mennes and Batten themselves included) had never been paid for the period when thei ships were being rigged. (L&M note)

arby on 6 Jan 2016  •  Link

I think Sam is worried about actual fire, not the Dutch. A serious danger with wooden ships docked close to each other, it can easily jump from ship to ship.

San Diego Sarah on 8 Jan 2016  •  Link

Sam referred to this somewhat in his Dec. 31 year-end summary, saying in effect it would likely put some distance between the Pepys' and Penns' ("we make ourselves a little strange"),

Sam has a strange way of doing this: He's been visiting the old sick Admiral Penn almost every day for weeks. I wonder what they talked about.

john on 10 Jan 2016  •  Link

To add to Australian Susan's exmple, most flight crews are not paid until push-back, regardless of the time spent befote then.

Mary Ellen on 9 Feb 2016  •  Link

"I also searched all the ships in the Wett Dock for fire, and found all in good order, it being very dangerous for the King that so many of his ships lie together there." I think it is obvious that he is referring to all the wooden ships being so close to each other in terms of a fire hazard. If one caught on fire, the entire fleet could burn. It is well explained and in one sentence.

eileen d. on 10 Nov 2017  •  Link

above link to Pepys Sociogram appears to be broken. but this should work...

https://www.pepysdiary.com/indept…