Monday 12 January 1662/63
Up, and to Sir W. Batten’s to bid him and Sir J. Minnes adieu, they going this day towards Portsmouth, and then to Sir W. Pen’s to see Sir J. Lawson, who I heard was there, where I found him the same plain man that he was, after all his success in the Straights, with which he is come loaded home. Thence to Sir G. Carteret, and with him in his coach to White Hall, and first I to see my Lord Sandwich (being come now from Hinchingbrooke), and after talking a little with him, he and I to the Duke’s chamber, where Mr. Coventry and he and I into the Duke’s closett and Sir J. Lawson discoursing upon business of the Navy, and particularly got his consent to the ending some difficulties in Mr. Creed’s accounts.
Thence to my Lord’s lodgings, and with Mr. Creed to the King’s Head ordinary, but people being set down, we went to two or three places; at last found some meat at a Welch cook’s at Charing Cross, and here dined and our boys.
After dinner to the ’Change to buy some linen for my wife, and going back met our two boys. Mine had struck down Creed’s boy in the dirt, with his new suit on, and the boy taken by a gentlewoman into a house to make clean, but the poor boy was in a pitifull taking and pickle; but I basted my rogue soundly. Thence to my Lord’s lodging, and Creed to his, for his papers against the Committee. I found my Lord within, and he and I went out through the garden towards the Duke’s chamber, to sit upon the Tangier matters; but a lady called to my Lord out of my Lady Castlemaine’s lodging, telling him that the King was there and would speak with him. My Lord could not tell what to bid me say at the Committee to excuse his absence, but that he was with the King; nor would suffer me to go into the Privy Garden (which is now a through-passage, and common), but bid me to go through some other way, which I did; so that I see he is a servant of the King’s pleasures too, as well as business. So I went to the Committee, where we spent all this night attending to Sir J. Lawson’s description of Tangier and the place for the Mole,1 of which he brought a very pretty draught. Concerning the making of the Mole, Mr. Cholmely did also discourse very well, having had some experience in it.
Being broke up, I home by coach to Mr. Bland’s, and there discoursed about sending away of the merchant ship which hangs so long on hand for Tangier.
So to my Lady Batten’s, and sat with her awhile, Sir W. Batten being gone out of town; but I did it out of design to get some oranges for my feast to-morrow of her, which I did.
So home, and found my wife’s new gown come home, and she mightily pleased with it. But I appeared very angry that there were no more things got ready against to-morrow’s feast, and in that passion sat up long, and went discontented to bed.
39 Annotations
First Reading
A. De Araujo • Link
"and so to my Lady Batten's and sat with her awhile"
I did not go there to offer her companionship or for a friendly chat;
hell no,my wife has been pleading with me to hire someone for companionship and so far I have refused because I can not find anyone that can also sing and danse for me;
like I said, I went there to get some oranges for free; Thats all. ;-)
Australian Susan • Link
"basted my boy soundly"
Doesn't sound as though Sam made any attempt to find out what had been going on between the two lads. Wayneman may have been very provoked. Sam seems cross because of the embarrassment of it all.
"same plain man that he was"
Sam approves of those who do not flaunt their acheivements or popularity. I have just been reading a book about Nelson and was struck with the contrast. That other naval hero took every chance to court his adoring public and collect rewards and medals!
"very pretty draught"
Sam likes maps, diagrams, architectural blueprints etc. He approves of anything "neat" and well-done.
"appeared very angry"
Trying to ginger up the household. Bet Jane saw through this.
Australian Susan • Link
Sorry. It's "rogue" of course, not "boy".
in Aqua Scripto • Link
Rogue be a very strong word to use;
OED: One of the numerous canting words introduced about the middle of the 16th cent. to designate the various kinds of beggars and vagabonds, and perhaps in some way related to ROGER n.1 There is no evidence of connexion with F. rogue arrogant.]
N
1. a. One belonging to a class of idle vagrants or vagabonds. Now arch. as a legal term.
For the legal definition, see the Act 14 Eliz. c. 5 §5.
V 1. a. intr. To wander idly about after the manner of rogues; to live like a rogue or vagrant; also, in later use, to play the rogue or rascal.
Very common c 1575-1650; now rare.
1667 PEPYS Diary 1 June, Which will be becoming him much more than to live wenching and roguing, as he now do.
So Sam be v. mad
Terry F • Link
taking
OED: 4.a. Condition, situation, state, plight (in an unfavourable sense, Only in phr *in* + *at (a) taking*, often with defining adj. Obs. exc. Sci.
1522 SKELTON *Why not to Court* 033 He is at suche takynge.
1592 UDALL *Erasm. Apoph.* 158 Wheras thou art in suche takynge, canst fynd in thyne herte to liue?
1598 LYLY *Midas* i.ii. These boyes be droonk! I would not be in your takings.
1635 R. BOLTON *Conf. Affl. Consc.* iii (ed. 2) 15 In what a taking was Job.
1662-63 PEPYS *Diary* 12 Jan., the poor boy was in a pitifull taking and pickle.
Wim van der Meij • Link
"People being set down" at the King's Head. Any one an inkling what that would mean?
Sam seems a bit disappointed that Sandwich is a servant of the King's pleasures.
And I think Sam was actually angry, not just playing angry.
andy • Link
“People being set down” at the King’s Head.
In my local "Kings Head" you can have a meal from the menu board whenever you turn up betwen core serving times (12 till 2 usually). I assumed that in Sam's "King's Head" there was one sitting for dinner so you had to be there at the time it was served. He arrived late and they had already started serving - hence the first recorded example of an english waitress sayng "Sorry luv, dinner's off".
Incidentally there's a rather unsavory joke revolving around the question "Where's the King's Head...?
Pedro • Link
Lawson, the sea officer par excellence, was much liked and admired by the sailors (Ollard)
For more information and relationship with Montagu see background...
http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…
Although I would like to agree with Aussie Sue, I get a sense of a put down in Sam's description of Lawson as plain. But that maybe my 21stC tinted glasses?
Rex Gordon • Link
"...the same plain man..."
I think Australian Susan has the right take on the phrase. The new hero remains down-to-earth, just as he was before his great success. He puts on no airs.
Nix • Link
Rogue --
Per Writ-In-Water's quote from OED, it may derive from this very early sense of the noun "roger":
"A begging vagabond who pretended to be a poor scholar from Oxford or Cambridge."
I wonder if Samuel was familiar with that usage. (Surely he knew the use of "roger" as a verb.)
Todd Bernhardt • Link
re: "and here dined and our boys"
Reading this, it struck me that though Sam rarely mentions him, Wayneman is seldom far from Sam's side as he goes about his daily business. Given that Creed has his own boy with him, I suddenly came to the realization that such boys were the 17th century counterparts to today's Blackberries, Treos, Palms, etc.
The main difference being, I suppose, that when incompatibilities arise today between PDAs, we call tech support rather than basting them soundly! (Though there have been times when I've wanted to...)
Pedro • Link
“…the same plain man…”
I should have mentioned that the I had searched to see if Sam had used the adjective to describe a person before. I could only find one reference...
"and Mr. Bernard and his Lady, with her father, my late Lord St. John, who looks now like a very plain grave man."
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Terry F • Link
“…the same plain man....basted my boy soundly”
Two separate topics, actually.
First, I agree with the take of Aussie Sue and Rex Gordon on Pepys's view of Sir J. Lawson, doubting that Pedro's single example - "a very plain grave man" - trumps their reading of "plain man" in the current context.
Second, why would Sam make "any attempt to find out what had been going on between the two lads"? To inquire is to lose all hope of finding out. When my two sons were that age, their mother used to invite them to engage in a blame-game; I assume Aussie Sue hasn't been there.
Todd Bernhardt • Link
One has to wonder why the boys came to blows ... maybe there was a bit of competition over whose master was better.
Wayneman: "Be that so? Well, *my* master says yours is a right rogue, and cannot keep his accounts in order!" *Bif* etc...
(Robert Gertz, feel free to step in...)
David Keith Johnson • Link
Does the OED show a relationship between the French name Roger (based on the Germanic Hrothgar - "famous spear[man]" - and Boswell's favorite verb?
Strikes me as an obvious connection between the earliest noun sense - a phony scholar - and the verb, the favorite recreation of a man about town, who might well pass himself off as a scholar on leave.
Taking on a Frenchified name also makes sense if you are trying to pass yourself off as Norman-derived quality, and also if you are engaging in the national past time of that country across La Manche.
stolzi • Link
"ending some difficulties in Mr. Creed’s accounts."
Ah, the well-known "fudge factor," though doubtless it didn't have that name yet!
"People being set down" could perhaps also mean that every place at the tables was already taken.
in Aqua Scripto • Link
'Does the OED show a relationship between the French name Roger (based on the Germanic Hrothgar - “famous spear[man]” - and Boswell’s favorite verb?'
here be the Oed:
[An early canting word.
The g was probably hard (cf. rogacyons s.v. ROGATION 1d), so that roger may be connected with rogue.]
A begging vagabond who pretended to be a poor scholar from Oxford or Cambridge.
1622 FLETCHER Beggar's Bush V. i, Surprizing a Boors ken, for grunting cheats! Prig. Or cackling Cheats? Hig. Or Mergery-praters, Rogers, and Tibs o' th' Buttery?
V. [f. ROGER2.]
trans. To copulate with (a woman); to have sexual intercourse with. Also absol. Hence rogering vbl. n. and ppl. a. OED:
this came later-
Then there be:
Roger the lodger,
did daughter, roger,
silly old codger
he be such a rogue,
25. Congreve, William
Has he not a rogue's face?…a hanging-look to me…has a damned Tyburn-face, without the benefit o' the Clergy.
(From The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Quotations in Quotations)
Terry F • Link
"Ah, the well-known “fudge factor,” though doubtless it didn’t have that name yet!"
That would be at least as soon as next year, stolzi, and it probably has roots in the Navy. OED: "Captain Fudge, 'by some called 'Lying Fudge' (Letter of 1664, in Crouch *Posthuma Christiana* 1712, p. 87) was a real person (the surname is still common in Dorsett). The nautical phrase, 'You fudge it,' associated in 1700 with the name of that captain, prob. belongs to FUDGE v.1. In a dialogue of 1702, *The Present Condition of the English Navy*, one of the interlocutors is called 'Young Fudg of the Admiralty' perh. with allusion to the same verb.
1700 *Remarks on the Navy* in D'Israeli, *Cur. Lit., Neology* (1841), There was, sir, in our time one Captain Fudge,.who.always brought home his owners a good cargo of lies, so much that now aboard ship the sailors, when they hear a great lie told, cry out, 'You fudge it'.
Terry F • Link
"To fudge" as in "fudge factor" was probably already in use:
"The word 'fudge' in such expressions as 'fudging the books' is said to come from a Captain Fudge, nicknamed "Lying Fudge" was a notorious liar in the XVII Century. Fudge was captain of the BLACK EAGLE into which ship some 55 quakers, offenders against the Conventicle Act, were forcibly transferred from Newgate prison in August, 1665. The ship was delayed at Gravesend and by the end of October, 1665, 19 of the prisoners and 8 of the crew had died of the plague, Fudge had been arrested for debt and the crew had mutinied. The ship eventually left Plymouth for the West Indies towards the end of February, 1666, but she was captured by a Dutch privateer the following day and the remaining prisoners liberated in Holland." http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/stat…
Pedro • Link
“…the same plain man…”
Looking at Sam’s two comments on Lawson’s nature shows a change of opinion…
Hither came the Vice-Admiral to us, and sat and talked and seemed a very good-natured man.
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
My Lord dined with the Vice-Admiral to-day (who is as officious, poor man! as any spaniel can be; but I believe all to no purpose, for I believe he will not hold his place),
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Pedro • Link
"who is as officious, poor man! as any spaniel can be;"
Obviously Sam is not refering to Kings dogs!
in Aqua Scripto • Link
OED Spaniel 3 versions.
this be one A Spaniard. Then
1. A variety of dog characterized by large drooping ears, long silky hair, keen scent, and affectionate nature, some breeds of which are used for sporting purposes, esp. for starting and retrieving game, while others are favourite pet- or toy-dogs.
1675 COCKER Morals (1694) 5 Beware of that sly Sycophant's Dogg-Tricks, Who, like a Spanniel flatters, fawns, and licks.
house curs.
1613 SHAKES. Hen. VIII, V. iii. 126 You play the Spaniell, And thinke with wagging of your tongue to win me.
b. A submissive, cringing, or fawning person.
a. intr. (also with it). To act like a spaniel; to be meanly submissive or subservient. b. trans. To follow, or fawn upon, like a spaniel.
Robert Gertz • Link
Montagu's stock continues to slowly slip with Charles (and to some extent with Sam), I see...
"Ah, yes, Sandwich. My Lady Castlemaine here..." Charles grins to Barbara under the sheets... "Wondered, seeing you passing by, if you'd be good enough to play that new Spanish tune on your...What is it?...Guitar?...For us."
Sandwich eyes the King...Barbara gives bright, innocent smile.
Momentary image of old friends facing his show trial panel before execution...
Charles gives pleasant, firm stare.
"Certainly, Majesty. A moment while I fetch it."
***
Wayneman's not been canned yet? Jane's anger apparently had some effect.
language hat • Link
"Surely he knew the use of 'roger' as a verb."
No, that probably hadn't developed yet. OED's first cite:
1711 W. BYRD Secret Diary 26 Dec., I rogered my wife.
in Aqua Scripto • Link
Also known as plow [plough ] day when ladds down in turnip ville start a land turnover [but must have their fun first before the serious stuff].
Patricia • Link
Todd: basting your Blackberry, laptop, etc., is called "Percussive Maintenance".
Re the oranges: Sam despises Mrs. B but butters her up in order to get free oranges. He will use anybody.
aqua • Link
Roger the lodger, then there be Palmed off.
Second Reading
Terry Foreman • Link
"Lawson’s description of Tangier and the place for the Mole,1 of which he brought a very pretty draught. Concerning the making of the Mole, Mr. Cholmely did also discourse very well, having had some experience in it."
Lawson was one of the contractors for the mole's construction; Hugh Cholmley (who had built Whitbey pier) the principal engineer. (L&M note)
"Whitby's harbour piers used to protect the fishing fleet which has declined but they're still a great tourist attraction.
Whitby Abbey has got to be the pinnacle of tourist attractions in the town, but probably coming a close second at the twin harbour piers which were first mentioned in 1545 when they were at that time timber construction.
"In 1632 they were rebuilt using stone but still having a framework of timber and It is thought that the first pier was on the west side, with the east pier being built much later. A gentleman called Sir Hugh Cholmley took a great deal of interest in developing the harbour piers, but it took until 1702 for an act of Parliament to be granted for complete reconstruction of both [east and west] piers." http://www.endeavourcottage.co.uk…
Bill • Link
“the poor boy was in a pitifull taking and pickle”
TAKING, Seizure; distress.
PICKLE, ... 3. Condition; state.
---A Dictionary Of The English Language. Samuel Johnson, 1756.
Bill • Link
"so that I see he is a servant of the King’s pleasures too, as well as business"
Here is my take on this. While Sam and Sandwich are passing Lady Castlemaine's lodging, Charles sees them and sends someone out to get Sandwich. Sandwich is pleased to confer with the king, of course, but does not want to excite further gossip by Sam telling the Tangier Committee exactly where this conference is taking place. So he tells Sam to say only he's with the king and to travel a different path so that it isn't obvious how he was diverted. This seems a reasonable request.
So why is Sam angry? Surely he didn't expect his boss to ignore the king? He is angry with Charles and Castlemaine for their dalliance, his puritan side showing through.
John York • Link
"the poor boy was in a pitifull taking and pickle"
OED Pickle 4 "A condition or situation, usually disagreeable; a sorry plight or predicament" this useage first quoted from 1562.
OED Taking 4a "Condition, situation, state, plight (in unfavourable sense)" this quotation from Pepys Diary used as one of the illustrations.
Sasha Clarkson • Link
Mr Cholmley, mentioned by Terry, would eventually have a family connection with Pepys, via his cousin Jane. Her eldest son, Charles Turner (brother of the precocious Theophila), married Hugh Cholmley's niece Margaret. Their eldest son, Cholmley Turner, became the heir of his great uncle, Alderman Sir William Turner, Lord Mayor of London (1668-69) who died without issue in 1693.
(Sir William, Jane's brother-in-law, has been mentioned before in these diaries as "Mr Turner the draper".)
http://www.historyofparliamentonl…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wil…
To my knowledge, Sam never mentions his kinship with William Turner in the diary, but it's a matter of public record that John, Jane's husband, was his brother. The connection is easily traceable because both were born at Kirkleatham in North Yorkshire.
My own interest in this is serendipitous: Sir William Turner's school in Redcar, was one of the great rivals of my own school at Acklam Hall in Middlesbrough. Mining the web for connections to "Mr Turner the Draper" opened an unexpectedly rich seam of information.
Sasha Clarkson • Link
BTW, may I recommend http://www.historyofparliamentonl… - an official Parliamentary history site, and a very useful resource!
Amongst much other information, it gives, where known, family details of all MPs, and is very useful for tracing genealogical connections!
San Diego Sarah • Link
Sam hasn't told us everything he knows about Sandwich's relationship with Charles II.
According to http://www.historyofparliamentonl… :
" ... Sandwich held high naval and diplomatic appointments for the rest of his life; but both his physique and his morals deteriorated rapidly at the Restoration Court. In religion, his servant and kinsman Samuel Pepys, 'found him to be a perfect sceptic, and [he] said that all things would not be well while there was so much preaching, and that it would be better if nothing but homilies were to be read in churches.'
"He favoured uniformity, just as he had always favoured monarchy, because they were conducive to an ordered society. He was well rewarded for his part in the Restoration; to support the dignity of his earldom he was granted lands and fee-farm rents worth £4,000 p.a. But he was extravagant; his embassies were expensive, and the wardrobe proved unprofitable. He estimated his annual income at £8,000, but by 1664 he was £10,000 in debt."
With these stresses in place by now, perhaps Sandwich was helping Charles II with some extra-curricular fundraising only hinted at in reports of the back-stairs chats before Christmas. It's expensive remodeling your mansion.
RSGII • Link
Sandwich's 8,000 pounds income would be equivalent to about 1 million pounds today using CPI or GNP deflator. To have the same ratio of income to the average wage, you would need to have an income of about 15 million today. See Measuringworth.com
RSGII • Link
Or an income of 240 million pounds to command the same share of England's GNP he did.
Chris Squire UK • Link
OED has:
‘baste, v.3 < Of uncertain origin . . might be from a present bas , base , to be compared with Swedish basa ‘to baste, whip, beat, flog.’ . . Possibly . . a figurative use of baste v.2: compare anoint in sense of thrash. trans. To beat soundly, thrash, cudgel.
. . 1660 S. Pepys Diary 1 Dec. (1970) I. 307, I took a broom and basted her till she cried extremely . . ‘
‘roger, v.1 < Roger n.2 coarse slang (chiefly Brit.). trans. Usually of a man: to have sexual intercourse with (a person, esp. a woman). Also intr. Cf. Roger n.2 4. . . ‘
‘Roger < From a proper name. . . 2. 4. coarse slang. The penis. Cf. roger v.1 Now rare.
. . 1694 P. A. Motteux et al. tr. Rabelais Wks. I. i. xi. 44 And some of the other Women would give these Names, My Roger, my Cockatoo, my Nimble-wimble, Bush-beater, Claw-buttock..my lusty Live Saucage.
. . c1800 R. Burns in Merry Muses of Caledonia (1959) 147 Bonie lassie, braw lassie, Will ye hae a soger? Then she took up her duddie sark, An' he shot in his Roger.
. . 2002 New Yorker 18 Nov. 94/1 The best of many droll ripostes is Nanny's bedtime anatomy lesson. ‘Boys have Rogers. Girls have Suzies.’
Chris Squire UK • Link
Here are the price indices for converting between 1660 and 2014:
Commodity:
real price = RPI/GDP deflator = 120
labour value = average earnings = 2,100
income value = per capita GDP = 5,200
…………..
Income or Wealth
historic standard of living = real price = RPI/GDP deflator = 120
economic status value = income value = per capita GDP = 5,200
economic power value = share of GDP = 29,000
……………
Project
historic opportunity cost = real price = RPI/GDP deflator = 120
labour cost = labour value = average earnings = 2,100
economic cost = share of GDP = 29,000
Taken from https://www.measuringworth.com/uk… which explains which index to use for different purposes. The important thing to grasp and remember is that using ‘real price’ by itself vastly understates the status and power that came with what seem to us quite modest sums of money in the pre-industrial society of 1660.
RSGII’s example above of Sandwich’s £8,000 income makes the point well.
I’ll post this in the Encyclopedia under Prices: http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…
San Diego Sarah • Link
Meanwhile, in Dublin, Sir William Petty’s first experimental sailing vessel was ready for a test. The 'catamaran' was built in 1662 with the encouragement of the Royal Society.
The Society decided to compare Petty’s vessel with existing types in a race between her and all comers. Royal Society members in Dublin formed a committee, and offered a flag as the prize to be raced for in the bay.
There were four competitors: Petty’s vessel; an open barge belonging to Charles II; a ‘large black pleasure-boat,’ and a man-of-war’s boat. The race was sailed in a strong wind on January 12, 1663, and Petty’s vessel won easily, his crew taking down the flag at the end of the course, and wearing it in the maintop ‘as admiral of the cylinders.’
We know Petty’s boat was 1¾ tons burden, carried 600 sq. ft. of sail, and, from her description as the ‘cylinders,’ probably had circular cross sections. Birch has an illustration of her at anchor, showing two hulls supported a complete deck with rails, looking like a cattle-pen, She had two masts and a bowsprit. We do not know how she was rigged. The illustration suggests a schooner, but we only have spars to judge by, and the form of hull does not agree with the description.
The committee’s report gave a long account of the race. Suffice to say the boats ran to leeward to the mark-boat, the ‘cylinders’ establishing a long lead; when they hauled their wind for the beat home the pleasure-boat did best of the other three competitors, since she was loaded with two tons of ballast. The man-of-war’s boat carried two empty barrels, which she now filled, but even this ballast-trimming did not help.
On the way home the ‘cylinders’ missed stays – the description of the incident suggests she may have been a lugger; she went ashore, broke a rudder; but succeeded in winning easily, while the pleasure-boat broke her boom, and retired.
When the race committee presented their report and asked for the Society's opinion, the answer was, ‘That the Committee should be put in mind that the matter of navigation, being a State concern, was not proper to be managed by the Society; and that Sir William Petty, for his private satisfaction, may when he pleases have the sense of particular members of the Society concerning his invention.’
This is typical. Throughout the 17th and 18th centuries the Navy Board guarded professional secrets and the monopoly of the East India Company, forming a code of silence from which the art of shipbuilding emerged with great difficulty.
Any improvement had to be from individual effort. Any semi-official or corporate attempt to remedy matters would be considered as infringing vested interests, if not as endangering the national welfare.
For more about Petty's boat building experiments, see https://www.maritimeviews.co.uk/b…