Sunday 25 January 1662/63

(Lord’s day). Lay till 9 a-bed, then up, and being trimmed by the barber, I walked towards White Hall, calling upon Mr. Moore, whom I found still very ill of his ague. I discoursed with him about my Lord’s estate against I speak with my Lord this day. Thence to the King’s Head ordinary at Charing Cross, and sent for Mr. Creed, where we dined very finely and good company, good discourse. I understand the King of France is upon consulting his divines upon the old question, what the power of the Pope is? and do intend to make war against him, unless he do right him for the wrong his Embassador received;1 and banish the Cardinall Imperiall,2 which I understand this day is not meant the Cardinall belonging or chosen by the Emperor, but the name of his family is Imperial.

Thence to walk in the Park, which we did two hours, it being a pleasant sunshine day though cold. Our discourse upon the rise of most men that we know, and observing them to be the results of chance, not policy, in any of them, particularly Sir J. Lawson’s, from his declaring against Charles Stuart in the river of Thames, and for the Rump.

Thence to my Lord, who had his ague fit last night, but is now pretty well, and I staid talking with him an hour alone in his chamber, about sundry publique and private matters. Among others, he wonders what the project should be of the Duke’s going down to Portsmouth just now with his Lady, at this time of the year: it being no way, we think, to increase his popularity, which is not great; nor yet safe to do it, for that reason, if it would have any such effect. By and by comes in my Lady Wright, and so I went away, end after talking with Captn. Ferrers, who tells me of my Lady Castlemaine’s and Sir Charles Barkeley being the great favourites at Court, and growing every day more and more; and that upon a late dispute between my Lord Chesterfield, that is the Queen’s Lord Chamberlain, and Mr. Edward Montagu, her Master of the Horse, who should have the precedence in taking the Queen’s upperhand abroad out of the house, which Mr. Montagu challenges, it was given to my Lord Chesterfield. So that I perceive he goes down the wind in honour as well as every thing else, every day. So walk to my brother’s and talked with him, who tells me that this day a messenger is come, that tells us how Collonel Honiwood, who was well yesterday at Canterbury, was flung by his horse in getting up, and broke his scull, and so is dead. So home and to the office, despatching some business, and so home to supper, and then to prayers and to bed.

36 Annotations

First Reading

Terry F  •  Link

"he goes down the wind"

Down the wind.
(a) In the direction of, and moving with, the wind; as,
birds fly swiftly down the wind.
(b) Decaying; declining; in a state of decay. [Obs.] ``He
went down the wind still.'' --L'Estrange.
http://dict.die.net/down%20the%20…

Australian Susan  •  Link

Not only no visit to Church today, but no mention of reasons or regrets for it! It is the Feast of the Conversion of St Paul, too - important Sunday, but Sam probably wasn't aware of that.

Is it unsafe for the Duke to go to Portsmouth because of discontented sailors? If so, why? The Duke's loyal and noble Naval officers have just returned from paying sailors at Portsmouth. Surely everyone was paid up and paid according to his due.......

Australian Susan  •  Link

Good summary of the problems of Louis and The Church
http://www.historylearningsite.co…

Sam's language is quite neutral here, yet, given his wife's antecedents, one would have expected him to be more partisan. But this just seems Sam being eager for news, information, the up to the minute stuff which delighted him. In the 21st century he would have been one of those people who have newsflashes WAPped to their mobiles.

JWB  •  Link

“he goes down the wind”
And, of course, it's the inferior position at sea.

JWB  •  Link


Portsmouth unsafe? It had been a parliament town.

Terry F  •  Link

Portsmouth

Of which the Duke has been governor since 1661 and will be until 1673, when the Test Act, which barred all Catholics and Dissenters from holding administrative positions causes James to relinquish the post of Lord High Admiral and go abroad.

slangist  •  Link

terry f-
which of your two dictionary meanings do you plump for, a or b?

if i translate aright, the modern phrases would be "going with the flow" or "going down the tubes."

can't tell which sam means. can anyone?

in Aqua Scripto  •  Link

Washed up but and does not know it "...So that I perceive he goes down the wind in honour as well as every thing else, every day..." When up wind ye be safe, the beasts does not smell your fear, down wind it be taking thy BO to the enemy.

slangist  •  Link

thanks sir aqua

for assisting my feeble understanding so conscientiously and clearly... the "b"'s have it...

Terry F  •  Link

sir aqua writheth truth

(in however evanescent a medium, sc. virtual, subject in the long run also to lability -- tech experts are at work on this....)

Mary  •  Link

declaring against Charles Stuart in the river of Thames.

What does this mean? And why does Pepys use such an awkward phrase as "the river of Thames"?

Mary  •  Link

up wind/down wind.

Surely one needs to be down wind of an animal threat or prey in order to remain undetected and unmenaced by it. If you stand up wind, the wind carries your scent to whatever stands down wind.

The essential question in this particular up wind/down wind debate seems to be the identity of the 'he' referred to in the following clause. If it's Chesterfield, who has gained his point and been granted precedence, then the comment is favourable; if Montagu, then the opposite holds true. Looks like Chesterfield to me, in which case going down the wind is regarded as being advantageous.

Pedro  •  Link

"Our discourse upon the rise of most men that we know, and observing them to be the results of chance, not policy, in any of them, particularly Sir J. Lawson's, from his declaring against Charles Stuart in the river of Thames, and for the Rump."

Why choose the plain spaniel Sir John as the prime example, when there are others closer to home?

Was Lawson’s rise by chance? He was a bred naval man. He had risen through the ranks to be an excellent seaman, much liked and admired by the sailors, a popular officer.He had in the past stuck to his principals and been taken into custody. Ollard says “In affect the threatened blockade of the Thames, was no different in naval terms to Monck bringing his troops to the defence of the government against a military coup.”

(My ideas kept under me Hat!)

jeannine  •  Link

"upon a late dispute between my Lord Chesterfield, that is the Queen’s Lord Chamberlain, and Mr. Edward Montagu"
Upwind/downwind, etc. Here's a little background. Montagu is the Queen's Master of the Horse. There is also some indication in his background (reported in letters between Sandwich, Clarendon, etc. that Montagu converted to Catholicism). We know from Sam that the Queen basically has next to no English "friends" at this time, and her Court is considered dull, etc. Inside her Court at this time, Mountagu is seeming to "like" the Queen and is growing very protective of her. He is also careful to "guard" access to her if/when he can influence it AND it will be something that becomes "noted" in the Court, usually in a manner to make light of him (won't reveal spoilers to come). Given that his feelings for Catherine probably by now would be considered "fondness" and/or a strong sense that she has been mis-treated, he tends to get over zealous in any issues regarding her.

In this case it appears that the question was who got precedence in this situation in terms of the Queen. Mountagu would "go" for it based on his feelings, but Chesterfield should have it granted based on his rank. In this society rank wins out, so Mountagu loses. My take (from his biography, the Queen's, Sandwich's and Clarendon's, who all mention Mountagu)is that Mountagu would "challenge" this to "protect" his Queen, but that the Queen, who is quickly learning protocol, etc. and very aware to avoid any scandals on her own, would let Chesterfield's rank take the precedence, if challenged or not.

Just to note, Sam doesn't like Mountagu so he will always present him in a less than favorable light.In some way, Sam should actually be grateful to him as Mountagu was highly influential in turning Sandwich from Cromwell to Charles II, and as we know, this has worked out well for Sam.

Robert  •  Link

"he goes down the wind" If the reference is to sailing, then he (Chesterfield) travels swiftly and directly rather than having to tack back and forth and make slow progress against the wind.

In a sea battle, he, Chesterfield, would have the advantage against Montagu because of his better position. As I read it, Montagu is the one downwind and Chesterfield is able to bear down (i.e. go down the wind) on Montagu's position.

Bradford  •  Link

"Sir J. Lawson’s, from his declaring against Charles Stuart in the river of Thames". . .

For an explication of this oddly-worded allusion, which puzzled me as well as Mary, click on Lawson's link for extract from Tomalin, &c.

jeannine  •  Link

"would let Chesterfield’s rank take the precedence, if challenged or not."
Just noticed a typing error here on my behalf--the Queen would not let Mountagu take precedence in this situation regardless of his feelings--rank would take precedence-sorry for any confusion-posted in a rush this am.

Terry F  •  Link

“he goes down the wind”

I've been persuaded by y'all to change my mind in favor of Chesterfield, and therefore give the nod to "(a) In the direction of, and moving with, the wind; as, birds fly swiftly down the wind".
L&M concur. They have "the precedence in taking the Queens upper hand abroad out of the house, which Mr. Mountagu challenges, it was given to my Lord Chesterfield -- so that I perceive he goes down the wind, in honour as well as everything else, every day", so their punctuation -- expresssing their (editorial) view that Lord C. is the "he" in question.

in Aqua Scripto  •  Link

The errata be called for. as the Dictionary and Terry F dothe state "up wind" in the direction from which the wind is blowing
"down wind" in the direction the wind is blowing
the "flag" be blowing down wind.
It needs one of the lurking sailors to un tar this.
"And, of course, it's the inferior position at sea." true especially when thee have emptied his sail.

But I believe that the battle/race be won by those that can remove the wind out of ones sails.

in Aqua Scripto  •  Link

Thank you Mary. sim stomachosus miser senex cadaveri aut sim multa inflatio

Pauline  •  Link

"... he goes down the wind in honour as well as every thing else..."
I read it as Edward Montagu, and find in Background that "in May 1664 he was dismissed for squeezing [the queen's] hand when leading her to her coach". So if "down wind" is good it is E, Montagu, if negative Lord Chesterfield.

Our dear queen had two very roguish servants in these two.

in Aqua Scripto  •  Link

Downwind: Words alone can mislead, they do need a background of time and space:
To the Great Plains Hunter and the Safarian, The beast dothe like to be downwind of the Hunter. It be safer that way.
To the Admiral and Tars, they dothe hate being down wind as they be the subjected to fireboats and loss of wind.
As to the Whitehall mob that be walking down on flea protected wormwood coated rushes, they have yet to become true hunters, being down wind meant that ye be at the mercy of Cheap Cigars, uncouthe flatulence, and the long winded versifying poets, subject of the skuttle butt, and be left trailing in the wind at bottom of the great pecking order. [As any one who has been in an enclosed space can testify, the aire, be not the best]
The king did not have to practice any craft to catch a hind, as killing grounds be fenced in by briars and other security devices like ditches to prevent the poor beast escaping the snorting, neighing, whinnying and braying even tho being forwarned, the beast could not escape, His Majesty dothe need a lunch.
AS this be spoken by a Navel type, it speaks of an ill wind for poor old Montague, be out of action soon, demasted.
Restated by one old crustatious iritable cadaver, full of stink wind

A. Hamilton  •  Link

goes down the wind

My seaman's five cents says the key word is "goes" --being downwind is disadvantageous to all but beasts of prey, but going downwind is the most favorable point of sail.

A. Hamilton  •  Link

downwind

Hence, as I meant to add, Rochester is the referent.

A. Hamilton  •  Link

Chesterfield

that is. (Not Rochester. Where he come from?)

Pauline  •  Link

"...goes down the wind...."
You've got me confused A. Hamilton. Are you saying the meaning here is to advantage? I surmised that E. Montagu had won (the advantage) this round because we find him leading the queen to her coach in 1664.

jeannine  •  Link

Hi Pauline, This is from the "ways of the wind" challenged here so I have no idea which way the winds are blowing, but I do know this. Mountagu's "job" was Master of the Horse so he usually would lead the Queen to her carriage unless someone else of higher rank was there and then he should defer to that person and allow them to take her hand. Chesterfield was of higher rank and "won" this priveledge for today. Mountagu, who is a little over zealous towards his service to the Queen, (and really not at all in a rakish way, but he really is quite fond/protective of her) balks and gets told that Chesterfield leads TODAY ( a light reminder to him at most). That has nothing to do with his overall job or the events in 1664 (juicy details for another day!). This is just "today's gossip" for those idle people at court who have nothing to talk about until some other little totally "nonevent" happens tomorrow or the next day and they all chose to make a big deal about it. Of note, Chesterfield has been a "hot" topic as of late, so I am sure that the Court has their eyes on EVERYTHING he does and tongues are a wagging. In regards to the wind, whichever way it is blowing, it'll constantly be changing for everyone in this Court.

Pauline  •  Link

“…goes down the wind….”
So going down the wind must be to lose, and the "he" must be Edward M. Thanks for the good information, Jeannine.

Second Reading

Bill  •  Link

"So that I perceive he goes down the wind in honour"

To go down the wind, faire mal ses affaires. [to do his business harm]
---A short dictionary English and French. G. Miège, 1684.

SP also uses this phrase on 6 September 1660 and 6 August 1662.

Sasha Clarkson  •  Link

Ned Montagu going "down the wind in honour as well as every thing else, every day".

Sam had no problems with Ned at the beginning of the diary. Indeed, when it was announced that Sandwich was to be sent to Portugal, and that Sam would "receive orders from my Lord Chancellor and Mr. Edward Montagu" his reaction was "At all which my heart is above measure glad ..." (The reference on this page, and the subsequent one on 14th June, mistakenly links to the Earl of Manchester.)

http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

After this, Sam, and others in Sandwich's circle, gradually took against Ned because he made a poor job of being PA and agent to Sandwich as ambassador to Portugal. The final straw came on 14th February 1661/2 when it it turned out that he appeared to have embezzled £2000 of Sandwich's money for his own use, and left Sandwich with £1000 of debts to pay.

http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Ned was a younger son of a cousin to whom Sandwich had given a chance to rise, but Sam felt that he had abused his position and brought "team Sandwich" into disrepute, to the dishonour of them all. Hence Sam was"troubled and ashamed". Sam was very much a team player, possibly by nature, and certainly by perceived self-interest: hence his recent defence of Creed's accounts despite his own reservations. Ned's hot-headedness and lack of judgement reflected poorly on the Montagu clan to which Sam owed his allegiance.

Tonyel  •  Link

Way off topic, but can't resist quoting Milton Jones' gag:
"When Grandfather became ill we rubbed butter all over his back - after that he went downhill quite quickly."

Sorry, Phil.

Chris Squire UK  •  Link

OED has:

‘wind n. < Old English wind . . < *ἄϝησι) blows, ἀήτης wind, Sanskrit vāti blows, vāta wind.
. . 19. down (the) wind.
. . b. fig. Towards decay or ruin; into or (commonly) in a depressed or unfortunate condition, in evil plight; to go down the wind, to ‘go down’, decline. Obs.
1600 P. Holland tr. Livy Rom. Hist. xxxiv. 867 When they saw him downe the wind and fortune to frowne upon him.
1671 tr. Machiavelli Marriage of Belphegor in tr. F. G. de Quevedo y Villegas Novels 141 Though [he] was of one of the noblest Families.., yet he was look'd upon as down the winde [It. poverissimo].
1673 W. Cave Primitive Christianity ii. vi. 147 In the time of Constantine when Paganism began to go down the wind . . ‘

and

‘challenge, v. < Middle English chalange, < Old French . .
5. To assert one's title to, lay claim to, demand as a right . .
a. with simple object. arch.
. . 1634 T. Herbert Relation Some Yeares Trauaile 1, I challenge no thankes for what I publish.
. . 1699 R. Bentley Diss. Epist. Phalaris (new ed.) 329 A Gentleman that challenges the Title of Honourable . . ‘

So it is Montague, whose claim is denied and whose status is declining, who goes down the wind.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"On the 20th of August, the Duc de Crequi, then French ambassador at Rome, was insulted by the Corsican armed police, a force whose ignoble duty it was to assist the Sbirri; and the pope, Alexander VII., at first refused reparation for the affront offered to the French. "

According to the article below, there was no police force anywhere before the Thames River police was organized 150 years after the Diary. By reading about the issues they were called upon to deal with, we can imagine how life in London was before a police force was invented.

I'm guessing the 'Corsican armed police' were an early branch of the Mafia, or a private army (which may be the same thing).

https://daily.jstor.org/the-origi…

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"I understand the King of France is upon consulting his divines upon the old question, what the power of the Pope is? and do intend to make war against him, unless he do right him for the wrong his Embassador received;"

L&M: Lorenzo Imperiale (Imperiali), Cardinal-Governor of Rome since 1654, had been transferred to the legateship of the Marches as a result of the quarrel with France. But the consistory refused to accede to Louis' wishes and banish him. In consequence, de Créquisailed for France on 14/24 December 1662. Imperiale cane of a distinguished Genoese family: Louis extorted from Genoa a decree exiling both him and his household.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"Among others, he wonders what the project should be of the Duke’s going down to Portsmouth just now with his Lady, at this time of the year: it being no way, we think, to increase his popularity, which is not great; nor yet safe to do it, for that reason, if it would have any such effect."
"
L&M: The Duke of York (feared by many as a militarist) was Governor at Portsmouth, 1661-73 (Sir Charles Berkeley, jun., being his deputy). It is possible that this projected visit was connected with the repairs then being made to the fort: CSPD 1663-4, p. 30. Whether he went is uncertain: he was at Whitehall on 26 January and 2 February. For his unpopularity at this time see e.g., CSPD 1660-1, p. 471; cf. https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/… and https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…

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