Bradford on 5 Jun 2006  •  Link

How one wishes the sources on Newman's Concordance gave an idea of just how complete it was, how it was laid out---and how many pages this great thick square book must have been. "Strong's Exhaustive" (1890), for decades the gold standard, has 1218 triple-column pages in its main concordance, plus substantial appendices, and could be used, Samuel Johnson-fashion, to knock someone down.

TerryF on 5 Jun 2006  •  Link

Alas, see the book and count them to know how many pages there are

A large and compleat concordance to the Bible in English, according to the last translation ... Now this third impression corrected and amended in many things formerly omitted ... By Samuel Newman, etc.. London: printed for Thomas Downes and Andrew Crook, 1658..

Pages not numbered. fol..

http://catalogue.bl.uk/F/RAIYJNVY…

TerryF on 5 Jun 2006  •  Link

Bradford, the University of Missouri has Newman in microform

http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/…

jeannine on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

"I set her at her father’s; but their condition is such that she will not let me see where they live, but goes by herself when I am out of sight."
What a sad situation. It's not clear if Elizabeth is ashamed to let Sam see her parent's living situation on her own behalf, or if they have asked her not to let him know where they live. In either case the conditions must have been horrible.

Robert Gertz on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

"...In either case the conditions must have been horrible."

Very strange. I can't imagine a son-in-law who would leave his aged in-laws in such circumstances. I still can't help thinking Alex did something unforgiveable at the outset that even Bess sides with Sam on.

Of course she may just not want Sam to see Alexander quaffing his best claret down in the "stolen" silver tankard...Will's "missing" cloak hanging from a peg nearby.

Poor, poor Bess...It's obvious she fudges with the household accounts from time to time to get something for Mama and Papa. From some past entries (dear prying tattletale Sarah) it seems that Sam is aware but wisely keeps mum so long as the sums are trivial.

ignis fatuus on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

Adds another dimension in the gulf of the families"...About 10 o’clock my wife and I, not without some discontent, abroad by coach, and I set her at her father’s; but their condition is such that she will not let me see where they live, but goes by herself when I am out of sight..."
Idea of Marriage and Families be myth that 'grown ups'[Adults??] want to believe in but facts get in the way. The stats tell the story.
Sheer and unmitigated need is the glue to the mystic halo.
There can never be a true Democracy, as long as democracy is never acted out in the Family setting.
Those that have the Monarch role will give lip service, the supplicant can try and find a way to equalise the odds [good luck?].

daniel on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

a "neat" head of a "viall" (or gamba for those of us who play them).

http://perso.orange.fr/dalle-carb…

Robert Gertz on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

ignis...Everyone knows marriage ain't a perfect thing. But the stats as you call them also indicate that most are happier with it despite the blemishes, though no one should be, or feel, pushed to it.

As for need, sure... But again, we and those of Sam's day, all know that, it's taken for granted, part and parcel. There's no great "exposure of the hypocrisy" in saying so. It's no myth or fooling oneself to try and make it work, it's just hard work...which often pays off, sometimes doesn't. If it doesn't, that's life.

The really interesting thing is how often we push the practical needs aside, as Sam did. And Bess, for she could've found someone better than a poor tailor's son working as a servant for his cousin. And even Sam and his male contemporaries want and need more than a sex toy and housekeeper, even if most of them and us could never express exactly what they and we do want. The result of what he did find in his marriage is right here...He's written the diary for and with Bess whether she (and he) know(s) it or not and I believe he saved it for her sake as much as his.

It's easy to see the holes in Sam and Bess' marriage (and at spoiler risk there will be some large holes) but there's an honest, hard-won affection there that has value however much it may be damaged and swamped by mutual flaws and the bumps and trials of daily life. Whether in the end it was worth it is for Bess and Sam to say, no one else.

Sides, you want perfection? Please. I doubt you get it even in Heaven should it exist...At least I hope not. Perfection is boring.

ignis fatuus on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

'wot' me? me not perfect?
A half century at bat, and still plenty of tearing up of wickets.
Seriously thou it appears that Sam has a good old tennis game going, Advantage both ways , a few grand slams, but Our Eliza doth zip then in. If thy have a chance, read the Specked Monster, by Jenneifer Lee Carrell. The Lady Montegue,A leading Candidate for leveling the playing field, useing her superior intellect and if we could have read Eliza's words, we would have found a diamond in the raw.
Unfortunately too many quality minds be lost because they were raised in the mental impoverished enviroment.
I know anecdotes make not the rule, but I dothe remember one Lass at age 9 be beating the classes two ages older [ie the 11 plus, she ace'd it] but by 14 she dumbed herself down as the job and marriage prospects be low with the obvious hi intellect and bit shy of the physical assets required to convince the male of the species of her worthyness. Now I wish I knew what she accomplished these 60 years plus.
The landfill of life be filled with too many undeveloped brains.
At least we know that Eliza existed, so much lost talent we are not aware of.

Michael Robinson on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

Newman's Concordance

Bradford, if it is of any help with the visuals or your plans for biblio-battery, the "second Impression," London: for Thomas Downes, 1650 appears to run as follows: -

Title, 1f.; Advertisment ..., 2f. [4 p.]; To The Reader..., 1f. [2 p.]; text 684 f. [1368 p.]

xaveco on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

It’s easy to see the holes in Sam and Bess’ marriage (and at spoiler risk there will be some large holes)

I don’t believe it! Who helped Sam bore the holes?...“and I did so watch to see my wife put on drawers”

Bryan M on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

Robert Gertz: …I believe he saved it for her sake as much as his.
A great insight Robert. It is easy to picture Sam fondly rereading his diary in his later years; a reminder not only of his Big Adventure climbing the greasy pole and making his mark in the world (not too bad for a prick louse) but also of the precious time spent with the love of his life. Elizabeth was undoubtedly that even if she remained unnamed. Even though we presently see Sam at something less than his shining best, matrimonially speaking, it was only a short time ago that he wrote:
Friday 24 October 1662
After with great pleasure lying a great while talking and sporting in bed with my wife (for we have been for some years now, and at present more and more, a very happy couple, blessed be God) I got up and to my office, and having done there some business...

This was also the day Sam had "a most excellent dish of tripes".

A. Hamilton on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

I dothe remember one Lass at age 9 be beating the classes two ages older [ie the 11 plus, she ace’d it] but by 14 she dumbed herself down

Why should not old men be mad?
Some have known a likely lad
That had a sound fly-fisher's wrist
Turn to a drunken journalist;
A girl that knew all Dante once
Live to bear children to a dunce;
A Helen of social welfare dream,
Climb on a wagonette to scream.
Some think it a matter of course that chance
Should starve good men and bad advance,
That if their neighbours figured plain,
As though upon a lighted screen,
No single story would they find
Of an unbroken happy mind,
A finish worthy of the start.
Young men know nothing of this sort,
Observant old men know it well;
And when they know what old books tell
And that no better can be had,
Know why an old man should be mad.

Pedro on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

I can’t imagine a son-in-law who would leave his aged in-laws in such circumstances.

From one of the books suggested by our Learned Annotator Jeannine… “Pepys in Love” by Patrick Delaforce…

(1667 Elizabeth’s parents)…parents, who depend on his generosity (Balty) and the French Church subsistence, and that they live on only £20 a year.

A. Hamilton on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

WBYeats, for those who ask

A. De Araujo on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

"but their condition is such"
So Sam must really have hurt Bess by calling her a "beggar"

language hat on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

"most are happier with it despite the blemishes"

Most men, that is, and I think the qualification is especially important in Sam's time (or any time before the latter part of the 20th century). Women had to get married in order to take part in society and cease being a burden on their family, but in most cases it must have been more of a burden than a pleasure. It's noticeable that widows left with any property frequently chose not to remarry -- why should they, when they had freedom at last? It's a mistake importing modern romantic conceptions of marriage into the past. (It's frequently a mistake importing them into the present, but that's another story.)

Glyn on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

According to a recent health survey in Britain. Men who are married live longer than men who are single: in contrast, women who are married don't live as long as women who are single. Probably doesn't mean anything.

What I find interesting about marriage in the 17th and other centuries before good healthcare is that they probably lasted only 8-10 years before one or the other partner died. If the survivor remarried and the same thing happened 8 or 10 years later, you could have children living with 'parents' to neither of whom they were biologically related. I wonder how they coped with that?

Gary J. Bivin on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

"What I find interesting about marriage in the 17th and other centuries before good healthcare is that they probably lasted only 8-10 years before one or the other partner died. If the survivor remarried and the same thing happened 8 or 10 years later, you could have children living with ‘parents’ to neither of whom they were biologically related. I wonder how they coped with that?"

Read your Dickens. There's a reason that the "wicked stepmother", orphanages and abandoned infants were such staples of fairy tales.

Glyn on 6 Jun 2006  •  Link

Yes, and at this period of time there weren't even any orphanages for abandoned babies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/soci…

"The only establishment dealing with foundlings as well as legitimate orphans was Christ's Hospital, founded in 1552, but by 1676 the illegitimate were prohibited."

And Pepys will eventually become a governor of Christ's Hospital, encouraging them to educate boys in mathematics and navigation so that they could become sailors.

Australian Susan on 7 Jun 2006  •  Link

Here is a link to a detailed website about Aphra Behn, the first professional female writer - i.e. one who earned her keep by her writings.
http://www.lit-arts.net/Behn/ (Although I think cases could be made for Hildegard of Bingen, Julian of Norwich and Teresa of Avila in this respect also). Behn was an exception: readers of this site who have also read Antonia Fraser's book, The Weaker Vessel(amazon link http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/… know how rare education for women was.

Bradford on 7 Jun 2006  •  Link

Thanks, Michael, for the pagination of the Newman---which shows (even allowing for larger type) that it really was an extensive reference work, and not just a Pocket Guide to Preacher's Prooftexts. It not only must have cost Pepys a good deal, but when you consider the labor required by concordance-compiling up until the computer age, it was truly a work of "devotion"!
Yes, it's unwise to import modern notions of romance or marriage into prior times; but in the case of Elizabeth and Samuel, it was a love match, poor as they were at the start. And the course of true love never did run &c.
What gambist wouldn't be inspired by such a face as that Daniel supplies us?

Harvey on 8 Jun 2006  •  Link

Gary asks; "you could have children living with ‘parents’ to neither of whom they were biologically related. I wonder how they coped with that?"

Probably very well... they could look out the window and see other orphans begging in rags on the street. Plus they had no psychologists to tell them that they should be traumatised.

Harvey

Canongate on 21 Nov 2006  •  Link

Just to think of the few degrees of separation in a world of 6 billion people. We have here people of like sensibilities who appreciate the same things in life, love and literature from Pepys through to the great William Butler Yeats to these bright minds who annotate here. What a joy to simply read this company and grasp the wonder in shrinking both time and space!

Terry Foreman on 30 Jan 2015  •  Link

" the carver coming, I directed him how to make me a neat head for my viall that is making. "

The page to which daniel posted a link being introuvable, ecce some neat gamba heads' images:

https://www.google.com/search?q=g…

San Diego Sarah on 4 Jun 2016  •  Link

"Thence to my brother’s, taking care for a passage for my wife the next week in a coach to my father’s, ..." No mention of Ashwell going. Is this why there was discomfort in the coach?
"... after a walk in the garden a little troubled to see my wife take no more pleasure with Ashwell, but neglect her and leave her at home." If Elizabeth was suspicious of Sam and Ashwell, there's no way she would be leaving Ashwell in London. This doesn't add up.

Sasha Clarkson on 5 Jun 2016  •  Link

There's no indication that "Elizabeth was suspicious of Sam and Ashwell": there's no sign of the symptomatic Pepysian drooling which, I'm sure, Elizabeth was usually quick to catch on to.

I'd say that the "discontent" in the coach is the echo of Sam's jealousy of Pembleton yesterday. Elizabeth is certainly getting fed up of Ashwell, who is probably too independent and accomplished to be properly subservient as a companion. Elizabeth, perhaps insecure but proud in her own status, is not good at peaceful relations with other women in the household, or the neighbourhood. She certainly would NOT want Ashwell with her on a trip to her parents.

It's difficult to say how impoverished the St Michels really were. The work by Patrick Delaforce is fictional of course; however, £20 per annum was not absolute poverty, but not very much if one had pretensions to higher social status.

San Diego Sarah on 6 Jun 2016  •  Link

Sorry I wasn't more clear, Sasha ... I wasn't remarking on Elizabeth not taking Ashwell to her parents; she was escorted by Sam so Ashwell wasn't necessary.

I was surprised Ashwell isn't going to accompany Elizabeth on a possibly three-day coach trip to Sam's parents in Brampton. (Sam made it in two days on horseback, which presumably is quicker.) I took Elizabeth's neglect of Ashwell to mean leaving her at home in London. Elizabeth knows Sam has a wandering eye, and he has taken advantage of female staff before (Mrs. Sarah at Sandwich's http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…) So do we assume Ashwell will play housekeeper for Sam while Elizabeth is away? Or will Ashwell be expected to have an unpaid vacation somewhere else (I think Sam would have mentioned the money that would save)? Maybe Elizabeth is trying to get Ashwell fired before she leaves? Insufficient information leaves me thinking this doesn't add up.

Sasha Clarkson on 6 Jun 2016  •  Link

Hi Sarah,

As a Elizabeth's companion, Ashwell would certainly expect and be expected to accompany her mistress to Brampton. If you can't bear the suspense, it might be worth a sneak peek into the future to see whether she did or not ;)

(I confess - I did! :D )
http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…