Sunday 3 April 1664
(Lord’s day). Being weary last night lay long, and called up by W. Joyce. So I rose, and his business was to ask advice of me, he being summonsed to the House of Lords to-morrow, for endeavouring to arrest my Lady Peters for a debt. I did give him advice, and will assist him. He staid all the morning, but would not dine with me. So to my office and did business. At noon home to dinner, and being set with my wife in the kitchen my father comes and sat down there and dined with us. After dinner gives me an account of what he had done in his business of his house and goods, which is almost finished, and he the next week expects to be going down to Brampton again, which I am glad of because I fear the children of my Lord that are there for fear of any discontent.
He being gone I to my office, and there very busy setting papers in order till late at night, only in the afternoon my wife sent for me home, to see her new laced gowne, that is her gown that is new laced; and indeed it becomes her very nobly, and is well made. I am much pleased with it.
At night to supper, prayers, and to bed.
21 Annotations
First Reading
Australian Susan • Link
"Being weary"
Not surprising after yesterday's busy day and late night. Interesting that the Joyces pull the family card and come running to Sam to sort out their problems and get advice, shortly after bad-mouthing brother Tom with accusations of being syphilitic. Good for Sam that he doesn't have "high words"or anything, but just listens, considers, gives advice and a promise of future help. Blood being thicker than water and all that, but I do think the Joyces have some neck!
Todd Bernhardt • Link
"he the next week expects to be going down to Brampton again"
Interesting that he talks of going "down to Brampton," when it's to the north of the city. Is it only a recent development (or perhaps part of American English) that I'm used to hearing people talk about going "up north" or "down south"?
cape henry • Link
Perhaps from the vantage point of London at the time, everywhere else was "down."
cape henry • Link
It would appear that Sam's father has acquitted himself well acting as executor of Tom's estate. So far there is no indication of the problems that Sam feared might devolve to him on his brother's passing. That seems a long time ago now, though it was only March 15th. Life, indeed, has gone on.
cumsalisgrano • Link
For us yokels it be upt teh citee, and back down on the farm, it be a betters thing, pecking order of towns and people. There nowt be Compass just the the shadow to guide one.
Australian Susan • Link
One went up to town and down to the country (town being London in this context). One also went up to University (either Oxford or Cambridge in those days) and down to go home. So one could get sent down (as happened to the younger Penn, I think, for his religious views).
Robert Gertz • Link
"...my wife sent for me home, to see her new laced gowne, that is her gown that is new laced; and indeed it becomes her very nobly, and is well made. I am much pleased with it."
Hah! Bess must have grinned all the afternoon at that one... Our cheapskate seems to have blandly forgotten his strenuous opposition of a few days ago. Though in fairness to him, she was a bit unfair, pressing him that day when he was in distress over Tom and the pox scare.
"Isn't it beautiful?"
"As lovely as the wearer..."
"But sir, just the other day didn't you say you'd be damned in Hell before..."
"Shut up, Will." mutual reply...
***
Robert Gertz • Link
"You tried to arrest Lady Peters for a debt? Joyce, you ridiculous moron! Get out of my..."
"She owed it to your family, Cousin Sam...To Thomas. Fifty pounds plus interest."
Hmmn...?
"Perhaps...Something could be done, Will. Let me speak to a few people I know."
cumsalisgrano • Link
Oh La! La! have thy knee pads out out.
Lady Petre versus Joyce & al. for arresting her.
Whereas Complaint hath been made to this House, That Dame Elizabeth Petre, Wife to William Lord Petre, a Peer of this Realm, hath been arrested, about Five Months since, contrary to the Privilege of Peerage, by one James Walker and others, at the Procurement of one William Joyce:"
Joyce, Walker, & al. sent for.
It is therefore ORDERED, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, That the said William Joyce and James Walker, and others who were Combiners in this Business, shall be summoned to make their Personal Appearance before this House on Monday Morning next, which will be the Fourth Day of April, 1664, at Ten of the Clock, to answer the said Offences: And herein they may not fail, as they will answer the contrary to this House.
From: 'House of Lords Journal Volume 11: 31 March 1664', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 11: 1660-1666, pp. 589-90. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/…. Date accessed: 04 April 2007.
Robert Gertz • Link
"Master William Joyce, we presume...?"
"Sirs?..."
"John Creed, sir...And my associate, Mr. Howe..."
"Sir..."
"Lets us proceed, sir...Come along, Mr. J. Please, much better to come and walk with us rather than be clubbed and dragged."
"Indeed do, sir." Howe smiles kindly.
"Masters? Don't I know you, Mr. Creed? A friend of my cousin Pepys?"
"Indeed, sir. Which..." sigh. "Does make this a somewhat melancholy scene for me. Eh, Howe?"
"Were we of noble rank, twould be Shakespearian, Mr. Creed."
"Sir?"
"The time has come, my dear Joyce...To talk of many things..."
"Gentlemen...I..."
"Of bills and attainders and gentlewomen..."
"Of cabbages and kings..."
"That's very good, Howe."
"Thank you, Creed."
"Masters...Please...If this be about Lady Peters'..."
"Sadly...Yes. Most headstrong of you, sir. Knowing my Lady has powerful friends."
"I'm just an honest tradesman, masters. Trying to recover what's honestly mine."
"Yes...And we do sympathize. Tis a sordid world where baseless titles and money talk, eh Howe?"
"Too true, Mr. Creed. Too true."
"But...Talk...And act...They do. Likewise a sad truth. And my Lady being a friend of our lord Sandwich...Well. Twas most headstrong and imprudent of you, Mr. Joyce. Though one must admire your forthrightness...Eh, Howe?"
"I fear it must be its own reward in this case, Mr. Creed."
"Masters, please...I told Parliament I'd withdraw the suit if my Lady would offer some payment."
"Mmn...Sadly, my Lady was even more embarassed to have her little follies revealed in such a public place. But, as one who once dreamed of a better, finer commonwealth here on Earth I can tell you, dear Mr. Joyce, your action shall be remembered...One far-off day...In its proper light as a courageous one."
"T'will one day be set down with honor..." Howe nods.
"Are we making for the Thames? Masters, please..."
"Yes, with honor. But...Alas...We must live in the present."
"Some of us..." Howe notes as a muffled scream and splash mildly disturb the night's peace.
***
Thom Hickey • Link
I was surprised to have them eating in the kitchen. Was this common, and only mentioned because his father also ate with them there?
--Th
language hat • Link
"her new laced gowne, that is her gown that is new laced"
Why am I getting a whiff of Monty Python?
Nix • Link
"my wife sent for me home, to see her new laced gowne" --
"Samuel, doth it make my butte look big?"
"'Tis well made, I am much pleased with it."
Thank you, Samuel, for the perfect answer to the question every man fears hearing from his mate.
Bradford • Link
Isn't this the very apparel they spatted over a few days back? Yes, LH, a little cod-Elizabethan, or an outtake from Max Beerbohm's great drama, "Savanarola Brown."
Australian Susan • Link
"Eating in the kitchen"
Rooms were much more multi-purpose in those days. This is one of the reasons why beds were four posters with curtains - it's so you could get some privacy whilst all sorts of other activities happened in the room - only lowly servants had open trundle style beds: their privacy did not matter. Sam would have had meals served whereever it was convenient for him: there are several instances of him dining with Elizabeth whilst she was in bed. Whilst we take that as evidence of his concern, respect and love for his wife,(which it probably was) we have to remember that this was not the rule bound Victorian household, and eating dinner in the same room as a bed was not as weird as it would have seemed to people 150 years or so later. Tables were often of the trestle type and could be moved and set up anywhere.
Terry F • Link
In Dirk's absence
De Prata to Sandwich
Written from: [Paris]
Date: 3/13 April 1664
Shelfmark: MS. Carte 223, fol(s). 81-82
Gives an account of the studies and character of the Earl's son [Edward]. Says, of Lord Hinchinbroke: His "mind is noble & generous. He loveth to be praised and esteemed; hearkeneth to admonition; ruleth himself. He only wants confidence, to declare himself, & shew his parts".
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/s…
Edward in Paris is to his father, Lord Sandwich, as John Pepys in Cambridge is to his older brother Samuel.
Second Reading
Terry Foreman • Link
"Interesting that he talks of going "down to Brampton," when it's to the north of the city. Is it only a recent development (or perhaps part of American English) that I'm used to hearing people talk about going "up north" or "down south"?"
And there is "down east": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow…
Terry Foreman • Link
"W. Joyce...being summonsed to the House of Lords to-morrow, for endeavouring to arrest my Lady Peters for a debt."
Elizabethm wife of the 4th Baron Petre was a disorderly character, who had in 1655 already served a term of imprisonment. She had owed money for several years to Joyce, a chandler in Covent Garden. About five months previously he had obtained a warrant against her, but she had escaped arrest by pleading privelege as a peeress. (Wives and widows of peers , as well as peers themselves, were at this time exempt from corporal arrest on charges of dent or trespass. The privelege was reduced in the reign of William III.
The present case was referred to the connittee of privileges of the House of Lords tomorrow, as recorded thus in its Journal: http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Joyce, after one day's inprisonment and a period on bail, was forced to apologise both to the House and to her ladyship. (Per L&M footnote)
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Edward in Paris is to his father, Lord Sandwich, as John Pepys in Cambridge is to his older brother Samuel."
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
"My Lord Hinchingbroke, I am told, hath had a mischance to kill his boy by his birding-piece going off as he was a-fowling. The gun was charged with small shot, and hit the boy in the face and about the temples, and he lived four days."
Creed was dispatched to Paris to make sure things were handled appropriately.
Edward Montagu, Viscount Hinchingbrooke (3 January 1648 – 29 November 1688) is the eldest son of Edward Montagu, 1st Earl of Sandwich and "My Lady" Jemima Crew Montagu. He was styled Viscount Hinchingbrooke from 1660 until his accession in 1672. He was educated mainly in Paris, where he lived with his cousin, Walter Montagu. He is said "not to have been much of a scholar".
David G • Link
In response to Terry's question of last December, in the U.S., one goes "back East" (even if one is not from the Eastern U.S.) and "out West." There's no particular rhyme or reason to directions, now or in the 1660s.
Louise Hudson • Link
David G.
And down South, and something my parents always said, "up home" even though "home" (where their parents lived) was not up but west on the same latitude. This was in the US. My relatives in Pennsylvania used to say they were going ."out" to New Jersey, where we lived.