Terry F on 5 Apr 2007  •  Link

A day full of women for/not for SP

Lady Peters (via W. Joyce's incarceration), Will Joyce's wife, the two "fat" women -- Betty Lane and Kate Joyce, "Anth. Joyce's wife" -- and, of course, Elizabeth, whom he torments out of jealousy -- his imagination working overtime -- and because Mrs. Lane left him horny. And, anyway, the Joyce biz has him out of sorts altogether.

Patricia on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

Miserable cur! He sits with Mrs. Lane & Co. eating lobster, for 3 or 4 hours (!) and then is jealous in case Elizabeth has been out & about. I take it his oath about not being with her more than a quarter of an hour means "alone with her"; otherwise how could he say his oath is still safe after a stay of this length?

Roboto on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

How about that nose pulling so in so?????

Robert Gertz on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

"...where I find him pretty cheery over [what] he was yesterday (like a coxcomb), his wife being come to him, and having had his boy with him last night..."

Of course, Joyce was terrified. He has no powerful friend but his jerk of a cousin to protect him and regardless of a certain lack of stoutheartedness perhaps, it's still crudy that he should have to endure all this when he's the injured party.

Lady Peters to the wall when the Revolution comes...

By the way, Sam...Despite your famed record of heroism, I seem to recall you bursting into tears when Lord Sandwich was a mite put out with you. And cousin Ed was hardly like to toss you to the Black Rod.

Some of us will keep your sympathetic attitude in mind a few years down the road...(Spoiler)

...When you turn totally yellow with panic.

And kudos to your manliness in making your wife cry, pulling her nose. Like Rick with Mr. Ugatu, I'm truly "impressed" with you today. Pray Bess has the good heart to be there for you like Mrs. Joyce for Will should the time come.

Still, we all have our asinine days...As my wife can testify. (though please not here, darling...) And you have been there for Will when it might have been a little to your discredit.

***

cumsalisgrano on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

Read the Gory details here; Kings thanks speech , Bills passed and the bail for Joyce. The king did not want to hear the details.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/…

Robert Gertz on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

"Her body was out of temper for any dalliance, and so after staying there 3 or 4 hours, but yet taking care to have my oath safe of not staying a quarter of an hour together with her,"

And about how long would the oath have held had her body been in temper for a little dalliance?

Paul Chapin on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

"and so did his solicitor (one that W. Joyce hath promised 5l. to if he be released)"

Contingency fees are not a modern invention.

Terry F on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

"Lord Peterborough presented a petition to the House from W. Joyce: and a great dispute, we hear, there was in the House for and against it. At last it was carried that he should be bayled till the House meets again after Easter, he giving bond for his appearance. This was not so good as we hoped, but as good as we could well expect. Anon comes the King and passed the Bill for repealing the Triennial Act, and another about Writs of Errour. I crowded in and heard the King's speech to them; but he speaks the worst that ever I heard man in my life worse than if he read it all, and he had it in writing in his hand."

Interesting that Pepys has the House of Lords dealing with W.Joyce first; but the House of Lords Journal has it latterly.

Terry F on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

"the Bill for repealing the Triennial Act, and another about Writs of Errour"

The first Bill has been discussed well, but the second not, viz., "2. An Act for preventing of Abatements of Writs of Errors upon Judgements in the Exchequer."

A writ of error is a document from a higher jurisdiction bearing an order to a lower jurisdiction to review a proceeding for the sake of possible correcting a legal error in it (to summarize http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/w060.… ).

I gather this Bill is designed to preclude the Exchequer's judgments from being immune to reviews being ordered.

Or...?!

Todd Bernhardt on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

"although I made her angry by calling her old, and making her know what herself is"

Seems that Elizabeth is not the only one Sam insults today. No wonder Betty's "body was out of temper for any dalliance"...

Dave on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

I have been trying to think of a modern day Pepysian character, he would not be a good husband, a philanderer, ambitious, with powerful political allies, intelligent and a coward. I have one person in mind but am not sure about libel laws. Still, we must remind ourselves that if SP had been the perfect husband with a saintly persona, what a boring diary we would have.

Don McCahill on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

Was SP a bad husband? By today's standards, certainly. But in those times, his actions might have been the norm for a young man.

A. De Araujo on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

"Her body was out of temper for any dalliance"
Sam, I was going to correct you and say "her mind", but then body and and mind are one and the same,right?

Bradford on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

A sour state of self-centered mind, where everyone else---from Mrs. Lane to the King He Serves to Elizabeth---are all of inferior make.

Terry F on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

"Her body was out of temper for any dalliance"

Was Mrs. Betty in her ****** ?

Nix on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

Review of a promising new book --

OFFAL & ORDURE
Hubbub: Filth, Noise and Stench in England, 1600-1770
By Emily Cockayne
(Yale University Press 355pp £25)

http://www.literaryreview.co.uk/h…

cape henry on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

"...but he speaks the worst that ever I heard man in my life worse than if he read it all, and he had it in writing in his hand."

One could get the impression here of a man disengaged both from the subject of the speech and the audience who hears it. This observation by Pepys is very unflattering to Charles II on many levels.

Of course, as many have noted here, Pepys goes on to be very unflattering about himself and I concur heartily with Patricia.

Dave on 6 Apr 2007  •  Link

Thanks to Nix for the link.
Isnt it strange that Pepys never mentions the disgusting smells or filth that must have been prevalent in London? The nearest I have read to such a description is when he visited a "dirty street"
Could Londoners really have become so used to the sights and smells that it never merits a mention?

Dan Jenkins on 7 Apr 2007  •  Link

'Tis not so strange to my mind. Folk can get accustomed to most anything and then live with it without apparent awareness.

Personal anecdote to point: When I was a child my folk visited a cousin who lived in a northern papermaking town. After hours of driving through beautiful scenery on a sunny day, a dreadful stench permeated the air miles before we reached the town. A yellow fog lay across the road ahead as we descended into the valley; the town itself could not be seen. Once we entered the dense cloud of effluvium, each breath drawn was a choking gasp bringing nausea. Tears ran down my face. The beautiful blue sky was now a sullen yellow.

Our cousin welcomed us, opined it was pleasant weather and invited us in for freshly baked cake!

jeannine on 7 Apr 2007  •  Link

"One could get the impression here of a man disengaged both from the subject of the speech and the audience who hears it. This observation by Pepys is very unflattering to Charles II on many levels."

Sam, and others of the time, would have similar observations of Charles II from time to time. He was not well respected as a leader in this sense. Although he had the intellect and skills to do the job well, he is characterized as disinterested in doing it and would prefer his sports, horse racing and his women. Sam, may be similar to Charles in his love for the ladies, his desire for 'nice things' , etc. but Sam is not lazy and would never be unprepared for a public appearance, so I would imagine this really gets under his skin to watch.

JonTom Kittredge on 9 Apr 2007  •  Link

"Her body was out of temper"
Does that mean she was having her period?

JonTom Kittredge on 9 Apr 2007  •  Link

Sorry, I see that Terry F has already asked the question: "Was Mrs. Betty in her ****** ?"

JonTom Kittredge on 9 Apr 2007  •  Link

"Interesting that Pepys has the House of Lords dealing with W.Joyce first; but the House of Lords Journal has it latterly."
It is interesting, but SP often puts things down in the order he remembers them, rather than the order they occured.

More to the point in this case, I don't think that he was actually present. It sounds like he hung around outside waiting to hear the result, and relying on the actual members for an account of what happened.

I'm a little confused, because he was definitely in the House for part of the sitting -- "I crowded in and heard the King's speech to them" (did the Lords have a visitors' gallery then) -- but he also says, "Thence, after the House was up, and I inquired what the order of the House was." So I guess he was there for the royal speech, but maybe the turned visitors out for their regular business.

cumsalisgrano on 9 Apr 2007  •  Link

?.."So I guess he was there for the royal speech, but maybe the turned visitors out for their regular business"
According to the HofL , the seated Barons spirtual and earthly, were excused from the proceedings when the matter of a lady being insulted by one of the lowly merchants case came before the bench, so it could be assumed all the visitors be removed too.

cumsalisgrano on 12 Apr 2007  •  Link

Daily Smut: Headline: Batten battens down for for 3 weeks, we wonder where?
Leave of Absence.

" Ordered, That Sir Wm. Batten, being to attend his Majesty's Service, have the Leave of this House to be absent for Three Weeks.
Leave of Absence."

Crown needs and wants more efficient collection of monies so that he can more more dignity when he deals with the Continent..
"Crown Revenue.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to take into Consideration the Bill for the better collecting and levying of the additional Revenue, established on his Majesty, his Heirs and Successors, for the better Support of his and their Crown and Dignity."

From: 'House of Commons Journal Volume 8: 5 April 1664', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 8: 1660-1667 (1802), pp. 543-44. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/…. Date accessed: 12 April 2007.

Pedro on 14 Apr 2007  •  Link

In the absence of Dirk...

Duke of York to Ormond
Written from: Whitehall
Date: 5 April 1664
Shelfmark: MS. Carte 43, fol(s). 353
Document type: Original; subscribed & signed

It is not the Duke's wish that in virtue of the instructions recently given on his behalf by the King, any distrubance should be offered to Sir William Penn, in respect of his custodium-lands in Ireland.

cumsalisgrano on 16 Apr 2007  •  Link

"...Anon comes the King and passed the Bill for repealing the Triennial Act..." So Charles can be like Papa and forget having a parliament and rule as a king should, unencumbered with lesser folk messing up his gifts to the ladies.
Carlos fails to remember when Papa failed to consult or have Parliament sit for eleven years 1629- 1640 -a nice vacation called the Inter-regnum [1637-1644,1645-1649,1649-1660].
Fortunately for the Hoi Polloi and and some others, Charles did not get all that he desired, unlimited access to wealth unlike the Sun King.
In my 'umbly opinion, If Charles had got his full wish then the future would have been different, not unsimilar to the fun and games at the Bastille.

Terry Foreman on 4 Dec 2016  •  Link

As Nix posted:

Hubbub: Filth, Noise and Stench in England, 1600-1770
By Emily Cockayne
(Yale University Press 355pp)
https://books.google.com/books?id…

San Diego Sarah on 23 Mar 2017  •  Link

Hubbub: Filth, Noise and Stench in England, 1600-1770

Some notes from the review: https://www.theguardian.com/books…

This is not a book to read if you are feeling fragile. Emily Cockayne leads us through early modern London, Manchester, Bath and Nottingham and shows us a Hogarthian prints in real life.

Slops pour down in a continual river of liquid filth, hammers bang out an irregular tattoo into the night, and you have to peer hard to recognise your family across a small room.

Your clothes are coated with a film of grease, and your bed is spotted with crushed bugs.

Everyone smells, especially you, but you're too tired to do anything about it. What's the point of cleaning up when, within a couple of hours you'll be as soiled as a drunken slut?

Cockayne has found 100 little stories that show people bustling about their business trying not to step in something nasty. Mostly they don't succeed.

The walls of domestic dwellings in the 17th century were routinely bulked out by shit shipped from "the necessary house" and were likely to dissolve into a nasty goo when the rains came. One authority noted that few homes outlasted the ground lease of 50 years, as during a violent storm "... the house should fall in, which is no rare occurrence in London".

"Kennels" (drainage ditches) were often clogged with everything from brassica stalks to dead babies, so it was good to carry a stick in case there were any rampaging pigs about.

Inside was not much better. In 1756 Harrop's Manchester Mercury advertised a book claiming to help you eradicate all household vermin, including "adders, badgers, birds, catterpillers [sic], earwigs, fish, flies, foxes, frogs, gnats, Mice, otters, Pismires [ants], Pole-cats, Rabbits, Rats, Snakes, Scorpions, snails, spiders, Toads, Wasps, Weasels, ... Moles, Worms ... Buggs [sic], Lice, & Fleas &c".

Even if you eliminated those pests, there was the issue of light. Neighbors could put up a building that blocked out your sunshine, leaving you stumbling around in permanent gloom. From 1696 the window tax gave incentive to brick up unessential windows. Your resource was a tallow candle, made from inedible sheep bits, which produced its own acrid microclimate.

Each chapter has a single-word title: "Ugly", "Noisy", "Dirty" etc. In practice they combine, so that it's impossible not to experience the book as a multi-dimensional attack on the senses. What she calls "ugly" (exiled courtiers shitting in corners of plague-free Oxford) is also surely "dirty",
What is "mouldy" (the decaying body of a suffocated child hidden in rags) is also "gloomy".
And what is "noisy" (a Nottingham woman fined for bringing a noisy baby to church) is, from the infant's point of view, "itchy" also.
...
Still, none of this need spoil the great pleasure that comes from reading about a world so familiar and yet so quaintly out of reach.

San Diego Sarah on 23 Mar 2017  •  Link

"Up very betimes, and walked to my cozen Anthony Joyce’s, and thence with him to his brother Will, in Tuttle Street, where I find him pretty cheery ..."

From yesterday, "... and so he [WILL JOYCE] was peaceably conducted to the Swan with two Necks, in Tuttle Street, to a handsome dining-room; and there was most civilly used, ... I left them providing for his stay there tonight and getting a petition against tomorrow ..."

So Will spent the night at the Swan With Two Necks Inn.

"Thence, after the House was up, and I inquired what the order of the House was, I to W. Joyce, with his brother, and told them all. ... I would not stay dinner, thinking to go home ... but thinking that they would take it kindly my being there, to be bayled for him if there was need, I returned, but finding them gone out to look after it, only Will and his wife and sister left ..."

So Will Joyce may spend a second night at the Inn, unless bail can be obtained. I suspect Pepys was relieved to find the bail party had been organized without his help.

San Diego Sarah on 23 Mar 2017  •  Link

Ahhhh ... I missed the end of Will's bail and housing story:

"I went to W. Joyce, where I find the order come, and bail (his father and brother) given; and he paying his fees, which come to above 2l., besides 5l. he is to give one man, and his charges of eating and drinking here, and 10s. a-day as many days as he stands under bail: ..."

Since the House of Lords is adjourned until after Easter ... which was April 10 in 1664 ... so that's 10 shillings a night for at least another week ... plus food and drink. Much nicer than being in the Westminster Gatehouse, especially if your boy can also be with you, and kept company by visitors.

San Diego Sarah on 23 Mar 2017  •  Link

"... I returned, but finding them gone out to look after it, only Will and his wife and sister left ..."

Does L&M clarify whether or not Will and Anthony had a sister, or does this mean that the Fenner sisters were there?

San Diego Sarah on 23 Mar 2017  •  Link

"This day great numbers of merchants came to a Grand Committee of the House to bring in their claims against the Dutch."

Does L&M indicate anything about this Grand Committee, and to which House would it report?

Terry Foreman on 23 Mar 2017  •  Link

"Does L&M clarify whether or not Will and Anthony had a sister, or does this mean that the Fenner sisters were there?"

It could mean either one, since Pepys often uses "sister" where we would use "sister-in-law.

I'm betting it's the latter , as often as Kate and Mary seem to hang out together and Mary's unhappy marriage to Will..

arby on 4 Apr 2017  •  Link

I've seen workers eating their lunch while seated on a bloated cow carcass at a rendering plant, one of the foulest-smelling places I've ever encountered. The nose can adapt to almost anything with a little exposure.

Robert Harneis on 6 Apr 2017  •  Link

Hubbub: Filth, Noise and Stench in England, 1600-1770, What about Scotland and Dr Johnson's remark, ' As we marched slowly along, he grumbled in my ear, “I smell you in the dark!"'

San Diego Sarah on 29 Jul 2021  •  Link

Another description of London's aroma:

"In Georgian times London was filled with the stench of horse manure, chamberpots were emptied out of windows (yes, the contents we now flush down the toilet!), plus dead dogs, cats, rats, and even horses were left to rot in the streets."
https://londontopia.net/columns/l…

This article is mostly about hospitals and the founding of the Foundlings Hospital under George III. Puritanism made people so disapproving of illegitimate children that they let them died in the workhouses. Apparently the little ones were better treated on the Continent, but such enlightenment took a while to reach England until Queen Caroline made compassion "fashionable".

San Diego Sarah on 8 Sep 2023  •  Link

Adding to the noise were the -- often welcome -- cries of street hawkers.

The author of this blog post, which contains some of the pictures Pepys collected, says "I take my cue from Samuel Pepys who pasted 3 sets of Cries into his albums of London and Westminster in a chronological sequence spanning a century, thereby permitting an assessment of the evolution of the style of the prints as well as social change in the capital in his era.

"In my book, I have supplemented these with another dozen series published over the following centuries which trace the development of the Cries right into our own time. My policy has been to collate a personal selection of those that delight me, those that speak most eloquently of the life of the street and those created by artists who demonstrated an affinity with the Criers.

"Through the narrow urban thoroughfares and byways, hawkers announced their wares by calling out a repeated phrase that grew familiar to their customers, who learned to recognise the Cries of those from whom they bought regularly. By nature of repetition, these Cries acquired a musical quality as hawkers improvised upon the sounds of the words, evolving phrases into songs.

Commonly, Cries also became unintelligible to those who did not already know what was being sold. Sometimes the outcome was melodic and lyrical, drawing the appreciation of bystanders, and at other times discordant and raucous as hawkers strained their voices to be heard across the longest distance."
(There's more -- I suspect the color pictures are Georgian.)

https://spitalfieldslife.com/2023…