Monday 25 April 1664
Up, and with Sir W. Pen by coach to St. James’s and there up to the Duke, and after he was ready to his closet, where most of our talke about a Dutch warr, and discoursing of things indeed now for it. The Duke, which gives me great good hopes, do talk of setting up a good discipline in the fleete.
In the Duke’s chamber there is a bird, given him by Mr. Pierce, the surgeon, comes from the East Indys, black the greatest part, with the finest collar of white about the neck; but talks many things and neyes like the horse, and other things, the best almost that ever I heard bird in my life.
Thence down with Mr. Coventry and Sir W. Rider, who was there (going along with us from the East Indya house to-day) to discourse of my Lord Peterborough’s accounts, and then walked over the Parke, and in Mr. Cutler’s coach with him and Rider as far as the Strand, and thence I walked to my Lord Sandwich’s, where by agreement I met my wife, and there dined with the young ladies; my Lady, being not well, kept her chamber. Much simple discourse at table among the young ladies. After dinner walked in the garden, talking, with Mr. Moore about my Lord’s business. He told me my Lord runs in debt every day more and more, and takes little care how to come out of it. He counted to me how my Lord pays use now for above 9000l., which is a sad thing, especially considering the probability of his going to sea, in great danger of his life, and his children, many of them, to provide for.
Thence, the young ladies going out to visit, I took my wife by coach out through the city, discoursing how to spend the afternoon; and conquered, with much ado, a desire of going to a play; but took her out at White Chapel, and to Bednal Green; so to Hackney, where I have not been many a year, since a little child I boarded there. Thence to Kingsland, by my nurse’s house, Goody Lawrence, where my brother Tom and I was kept when young. Then to Newington Green, and saw the outside of Mrs. Herbert’s house, where she lived, and my Aunt Ellen with her; but, Lord! how in every point I find myself to over-value things when a child. Thence to Islington, and so to St. John’s to the Red Bull, and there: saw the latter part of a rude prize fought, but with good pleasure enough; and thence back to Islington, and at the King’s Head, where Pitts lived, we ’light and eat and drunk for remembrance of the old house sake, and so through Kingsland again, and so to Bishopsgate, and so home with great pleasure. The country mighty pleasant, and we with great content home, and after supper to bed, only a little troubled at the young ladies leaving my wife so to-day, and from some passages fearing my Lady might be offended. But I hope the best.
28 Annotations
First Reading
Terry F • Link
"a bird...from the East Indys, black the greatest part, with the finest collar of white about the neck; but talks many things and neyes like the horse, and other things, the best almost that ever I heard bird in my life."
Surely a Myna or Mynah:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myna
At the bottom of this page, a video of a mynah not as articulate as the Duke's: http://www.honoluluzoo.org/mynah_…
cape henry • Link
"...but, Lord! how in every point I find myself to over-value things when a child." So he finishes a charming piece of writing recounting what many of us have done and observed ourselves. The vast gardens of childhood are but tiny places. Even so, there is no need to renounce their joys.
Patricia • Link
"my Lady, being not well, kept her chamber.... and from some passages fearing my Lady might be offended."
Lady Sandwich probably just can't face Sam again after that embarrassing episode the other day when he walked in on her while she was on the pot.
Alan Bedford • Link
"how my Lord pays use now for above 9000l.,"
That's interest he's paying on £9000, in, I would guess, commercial loans. It seems he's maxed out on loans from his friends already.
Terry F • Link
The Duke, in his closet, talks of things for a Dutch war
"about a Dutch warr, and discoursing of things indeed now for it. The Duke, which gives me great good hopes, do talk of setting up a good discipline in the fleete."
= "things for it" in two senses: the "things indeed now for it," i.e., factors in favor of its occurring; then, what the fleet needs for it.
Terry F • Link
The implications for Pepys of Sandwich's financial straits
Two days ago, at dinner, "I and my wife much troubled about my money that is in my Lord Sandwich's hand, for fear of his going to sea and be killed; but I will get what of it out I can." Saturday 23 April http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Such a shock that he doesn't say how distressed he is?!
cumsalisgrano • Link
He doth appear to be on a mini vacation, I wonder why? surely not rememering a certain birthday, just a coincidence of course.
cumsalisgrano • Link
Alan Bedford: It could be 9000 li be the interest, the debt be 56000 li. It takes big bucks to run that size estate and there be no steady income or rents, I do not think he has coal mines or lead for income, like some of the other landed ones, Huntington is good for fishing and wading. He is owed much by the Royals.
Real estate has to produce cash either from housing or minerals, sheep and farm product doe not yield hi incomes.
Too many then and now have very little savvy in grasping how wealth be generated. Sending out Freebooters gets thee a warre, Sure there be investments that be running in the Coffee shops backing various adventures, there be many hulk resting on far shores that has sunk an invester.
Being an Earl may be glamouress but thee need some horse sense to get others to hand over some playing monies.
Keeping up with the Jones was in vogue then as now.
Robert Gertz • Link
"The Duke, which gives me great good hopes, do talk of setting up a good discipline in the fleete..."
Me thinks the party's over, ye seagoing Cavaliers...
Though of course the brunt of "good discipline" will be born by the common sailors.
"What we need are some good floggings...And a few executions. Just pull a few from the more troublesome types at random. You know, the silly ones who keep running off, whining about their families starving and the unfairness of their being pressed."
Terry F • Link
"Me thinks the party's over, ye seagoing Cavaliers..."
Robert, is this chat in the Duke's closet indeed the turning point in the history of the British navy?
Jamie: "Pepys, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."
Paul Chapin • Link
"my Lord pays use now for above 9000l"
Reading between the lines, I sense that Sam may have been sounding Mr. Moore out about recovering his money that is in my Lordship's keeping, and Moore trying to discourage him from pressing the matter.
As to the exchange between Alan Bedford and CSG, I would say the word "for" clearly indicates that the 9K is the principal amount, not the interest.
Australian Susan • Link
"my Lady, being not well, kept her chamber."
Cystitis?
Needs to be near a chamber pot?
There is mention here of the common practice of putting children to live with a nurse until weaned:"...my nurse's house, Goody Lawrence, where my brother Tom and I was kept when young..."
Robert Gertz • Link
"So no play?" wistfully...
"Vows, dear...Oh, look there's Bednal Green. When I was a boy we always used to pass here on our way to Hackney. Look, there's Hackney, where I was boarded!"
"Nice...You sure about the play?"
"There's the creek crossing where I felt my first twinge of the stone. See that slippery rock?"
"Wonderful..."
"I think...Yes, this is Kingsland. There's Goody Lawrence's cottage, where Tom and I stayed when we were young. Ah, it's just as I remember it."
"The stuff growing in that thatched muck on the roof's a nice touch."
"Yes, Goody Lawrence wasn't much for redoing her roof. Lord that stench...It brings back such memories." tears up.
"Look...The house where Mrs. Herbert and Aunt Ellen lived. Hmmn...Not quite as big as I remember it."
"Very nice. Sometime we have to visit my favorite places in Paris."
"I suppose this is boring you."
"Nah." pat on hand.
language hat • Link
"Sam may have been sounding Mr. Moore out about recovering his money that is in my Lordship's keeping"
I certainly would be concerned. If the guy who's "keeping" your money is in that kind of debt, how are you ever going to get your money back? It just reinforces my amazement that Pepys was willing to leave the bulk of his savings in the hands of an irresponsible aristo. I know, I know, no banks yet, but there must have been something better to do with it (hole in the ground?).
Ann • Link
I don't have the advantage of knowing how this comes out in the end, but, if Sandwich goes to sea and survives, doesn't he stand a chance of greatly increasing his wealth through "prizes" taken? Or, does that perk develop later in the Royal Navy?
Bradford • Link
"in every point I find myself to over-value things when a child"---exactly, so Cape Henry: we were small then, so objects, places, people loomed larger; and we were seeing such things for the first time.
Ditto, LH, about Lord S. holding Sam's swag. But how can you get it away from him without his being "offended"? And what if it isn't, er, readily available upon demand?
Nix • Link
"He told me my Lord runs in debt every day more and more, and takes little care how to come out of it. He counted to me how my Lord pays use now for above 9000l." --
I'm astonished that Samuel doesn't express alarm. It's like someone telling you he saw your stockbroker at the high rollers table in Las Vegas, swilling Cristal and pawing the waitresses.
Andrew Hamilton • Link
birdsong
To hear more of what Sam says he heard four days ago, go the link below. To the left of the bumblebee, click on "Listen to June 6"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/scien…
cumsalisgrano • Link
"...doesn't he stand a chance of greatly increasing his wealth through "prizes" taken? Or, does that perk develop later in the Royal Navy?..."
Prize monies be the Hooke for many, no guarantees.
Time to read thy Seamans Grammar MDCXCI John Smith
Chapter XIV page 64 Seamens grammar.
How they divide their shares in a Man of War, what books and Instuments are fit for a Sea-man, with divers advertisments for Sea men, and the use of the Petty Tally.
The Ship hath one third part , The Victualler the other third. The other third is for the Company, and this is sub-divided thus in shares.
Captain 10: in some but 9;
The Lieutenant ( or as he agreeth with the Captain;
The Master 8 in some but 7:
The Mates 7 or 5:
The Chyrugion 6 or 3: ...........The Gunner 6 or 5:
The Boatswain 6 or 5:............The Carpenter 6 or 5:
The Trumpeter 6 or 5:.............
The 4 quarter Masters 5 apiece or 4:
The Cooper 5 or 4: ..............The Chyrurgions Mate 5 or 4:
The Gunners Mate 5 or 4:......The Carpenters Mate 5 or 4:
The Corporal 4 or 3:..............The quarter Gunners 4 or 3:
The Trumpeters Mate 3 or 3 1/2:...The Steward 4 or 3:
The Cook 4 or 3....The Coxswain 4 or 3:...The Swabber 4 or 3:
........The Younkers or Foremast men according to their desserts,some 3, som 2 1/2, some some 1 1/2, and the Boys one , which is a single share , or one and half, or as they deserve [The captain can adjust if needed]
jeannine • Link
"if Sandwich goes to sea and survives, doesn't he stand a chance of greatly increasing his wealth through "prizes" taken? Or, does that perk develop later in the Royal Navy?"
Ann, that practice has been going on for awhile. In the case of some of the people we know so far, Carteret made a fortune (several times when needed) in his past "privateering" days, as did Holmes and others, like Rupert, etc. Although these activities were technically "outside" of the Navy, they weren't outside of the reign of Charles II, who would welcome his split in any prizes taken.
Second Reading
Terry Foreman • Link
"my Lord Peterborough’s accounts"
See http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Terry Foreman • Link
"Mr. Moore ...told me my Lord runs in debt every day more and more, and takes little care how to come out of it. He counted to me how my Lord pays use now for above 9000l."
For Sandwich's finances see http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
(L&M footnote)
Terry Foreman • Link
"so to St. John’s to the Red Bull and there saw the latter part of a rude Prize fight" -- so L&M correct the MS for clarity's sake.
The Red Bull, an open-air theatre in St John’s St, Clerkenwell, was used for this purpose after it fell into disuse as a playhouse. Cf. Act I, sc. I of Davenant's play, The Playhouse to Let (acted late in the summer of 1663), in which the Player says: 'tell 'em the Red Bull stands empty for fencers/There are no tenants in it but old spiders./Go, bid the men of wrath allay their heat/With prizes there.'
(L&M footnote)
Bill • Link
"a bird...from the East Indys, black the greatest part, with the finest collar of white about the neck; but talks many things and neyes like the horse, and other things, the best almost that ever I heard bird in my life."
The description is insufficient to enable the bird to be determined with certainty, but Professor Newton informs the editor that it is most likely to have been a grackle of some kind. The Gracula religiosa, or mina, has a yellow collar, is easily tamed, and learns to talk and whistle with great facility. Professor Newton kindly contributes the following two interesting quotations, showing that minas were brought from India early in the eighteenth century; and he believes that, as the mina is a favourite cage-bird in India, it was brought over as soon as direct trade with that country was established. One of the earliest figures of the bird is by Eleazer Albin ("Natural History of Birds," vol. ii., pi. 38), in 1738, who writes: "This bird imitates a human voice, speaking very articulately. I drew this bird at Mr. Mere's coffee-house in King Street, Bloomsbury. Sir Hans Sloan had one of these birds that spoke very prettily, which he presented to Her Majesty Queen Carolina. They are brought from East India." George Edwards ("Natural History of Uncommon Birds," vol. i., pi. 17), whose plate is dated September 25th, 1740, gives two figures, one from a bird he saw at a dealer's in White Hart Yard, in the Strand, and the other from a bird which belonged to Dr. George Wharton, treasurer of the College of Physicians, adding: "For whistling, singing, and talking, it is accounted in the first rank, expressing words with an accent nearer human than parrots, or any other bird usually taught to talk. They are said to come from the Island of Borneo, and 'tis likely they come from thence and the adjacent parts. They are brought to us by the India Company's ships."
---Wheatley, 1904.
San Diego Sarah • Link
"my Lady, being not well, kept her chamber." She's pregnant with James Montagu, their 10th child.
San Diego Sarah • Link
http://www.historic-uk.com/Histor…
On the west side of Newington Green, perched on the border of Hackney and Islington, is the home of the oldest surviving terraced houses in London. Built in 1658, the four buildings at 52-55 Newington Green have survived the Great Fire of London as well as two World Wars.
The building of the terrace was actually as a replacement of a much larger house that stood on the same site. This original house was said to have had gardens, orchards and outhouses, but with the growth of the Stoke Newington area the terraced houses provided more financial yield from the land.
Sasha Clarkson • Link
"my Lord pays use": cf the word "usury".
"52-55 Newington Green have survived the Great Fire of London ...."
Hmm, I think Historic UK is being a bit disingenuous here Sarah, by implying that the houses were in any way threatened in 1666, or part of London. :)
Newington Green did not "survive" the Great Fire Of London, because it was neither in London, nor anywhere near the fire, most of which was within the city walls, or a few hundred yards to the west of it, but still within the jurisdiction of the City. In fact, Newington Green was then properly in the country, about 2½ miles due north of Moorgate, which the fire approached but did not reach.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir…
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wiki…
Chris Squire UK • Link
Re: ’ . . my Lord pays use now for above 9000l., . . ’
‘use, n. < Anglo-Norman . .
. . 5. †b. Premium on money lent to another; interest. Freq. (and in earliest use) fig. Cf. use-money n. Obs.
. . 1637 in F. P. Verney & M. M. Verney Mem. Verney Family 17th Cent. (1907) I. 104 He threatens to make him pay use for his barn.
. . 1668 J. Child Brief Observ. Trade 24 With them..there is not any Use for Money tollerated, above the rate of six in the hundred . . ‘
(OED)