Paul Chapin on 10 Jul 2007  •  Link

"begin I will not"
I don't understand what he won't begin. Is this the correct text per L&M?

Terry on 10 Jul 2007  •  Link

"begin I will not"
I'm guessing this means "My Lord won't talk about it and I'm not going to start the conversation".

jeannine on 10 Jul 2007  •  Link

Apologies for the long post, please skip it if family letters are of no interest to you. From Helen Heath's "The Letters of Samuel Pepys and his Family Circle", John Sr. writes this letter to Sam, dated today. Heath noted that the handwriting and punctuation were so erratic that it was hard to know where a sentence ended. Printed below as it appeared in her book (pages 10-13):

dear Soon
you will find by the inclosed that the foule mouthed docter is resolved to be troublesom it was with the consent of his brother mr Roger for thay ware both with mr fillips [the lawyer at Brampton] that brought me this letter. thay gote a promise from him to be for them befor thay told him aganst home it was. and sent the note to him after ward and docter tomess note that he had under your brother hand for £ 10 but noe seal to it. he did acknowleg to me and your brother John that it was but £ 8 pound that was due to him and thare was 19s and 6d was in your brothers book which was due to him of that £ 8. i was with mr fillips this morning & he shoed me the note for the 10 pound. and I see noe seal to it & i told him thare shuld be noe need of troubling a baly to serve the leet. tharefore pray good child let thare be som theng done in it. nether can i know how an new inventery can be mad the goods is so disparsed. if you have aded the mony which is 24s for the 3 shirtes and 40s for the clothe. and a letter case. I can but tak my oath-as i have done all redy- that i have mad a true inventery of all things that was his I hope you have receved my last letter with the [receipt] inclosed under toms hand [see note 1] for an acknowlegment that the goods were mine with the other paper which was writ not a quarter of a year before he died whare in he wished i wold mak and asinement of my goods over to him. now in answer to your last I have spoken to will Stancks and he will sift out Steven wilson and foxe [see note 2] what was due when your uncle died he is afeared that foxe hath payd your uncle. I wished w. Stancks to let him know if he pleeds, that he had noe write to it tell he was admited to it. and for ashtone [ see note 3] Stanckes cannot tell what it shuld be for that thare shuld be mony due from him for the close. thar was an acker that belonged to an other man that your uncle never agreed for but thinking he might have it at any time yelded to pay 8s a year tell he had concluded for it. and soe your uncle set trees and dichet and set a queck set as far as that acker went. he that ode [owned] it being dead it is Latin [letten] to an nother and he hath taken it to his one use. it was the land that the hay cock stood one. Stanckes gote the gate removed when i was at london last. so prices mony is not to be payd tell mickellmus or the next cort that we give up our write to him in the land. for the £ 39 pound which is yet due to us from piget doe not know what securi[ty] we are like to have from him for it more then we have all redy. we must indever to mak sale of soe much as is left for soe much as is left unpayd. i doe not yet understand hoe it is that is to give sattisfackshon for the none payment of [rent] from the time that it shuld be payd. as for barten bisnes thare is 7 rodes of that land your uncle had of old barten [see note 4] which is worth a matter of 15 or 16£ to be sold. thes and soe much more as mad it up 14 or 16£ a yeare was geven to old barten and his wife and to the are male of them to after thare desest. this was geven 4 years befor the oner died. when he died he gave all the rest of his estate to old barten. if we cannot find any writing that bartan was ingaged to your uncle for to cleare this. if we cold find any thing then we cold tak a corse with the old man. If we cannot if the old man die it comes to the young man and we cannot hinder him. Mr Narborow hath a good bart of this land and hath sold it to price and price hath the bennefet of it this year. it is thought he refueses to paye mr narborow tell he hath cleared this thing. i desird he wold act for us as wel as himself and according to the valluashan of ours we wold contribute toward the charges. you will doe very well to write to him and at your uncle whiles you may know how to have your Ietter convade. not receveing a letter by york makes me fear thare is som hinderance of my daughters [Elizabeth] coming next week. if thare be i shall be very sory for it for i shold be very glad to see her hear as sone as can be. dear Child I am very much troubled what my lords potiecarries [see note 5] fear is of you-that you have an ulser groeing in your kidnes. for godsak let me beg of you that you will have mr holards' advice and som able docter of his acquantance with as much speed as you can. and to beg a blesing from the lord that your life may be preserved for what a sad condishan shuld your poor old father and mother be in if the lord shuld tak you before us. i shall be very glad if any lines com to will stanck to day for our bisnes requires his spedie asistance. thiss with mine and your mothers very kindely be presented to you both with your sisters service i rest hoe shall ever be
Your very loving father
John Pepys

Note 1: The Inventory of the Tailor Shop and the later part is Tom's endorsement of it
http://www.pepysdiary.com/indepth…
dated August 25, 1661.

Note 2: Heath explains that Fox and perhaps Wilson also had purchased land previously from Uncle Robert.

Note 3: Ashton does not appear as either person or place in the Diary.

Note 4: Heath explains john Barton was married to Elizabeth Kight (sister of Margaret, therefore Sam's uncle via marriage) and "was an alderman and burgess of Huntingdon and apparently an intimate of Sandwich. From the Diary it is apparent that Barton's business refers to the sale of a house which Uncle Robert had bought of Barton, but to which Barton's title had been dubious, as appeared when one Prior offered to buy the place from John Pepys Senior." (p 12)

Note 5: "Apothocary" refers to Dr. Burnett, see his advice to Sam http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Michael Robinson on 10 Jul 2007  •  Link

my Lady Castlemayne's picture, finely done;

Per L&M - who reproduce the Hinchingbrooke version, vol. V opposite p. 200. Remained at Hinchingbrooke until it was sold at Sotheby's (Lon.) on 4th. December 1957, Lot 184. Appears to have been a copy executed in Lely's studio and to be less good than the versions at Knole and Euston.

For an image of the Euston version, known as "... the penitent Magdalene"
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki…

JWB on 10 Jul 2007  •  Link

"sattisfackshon "

Looks so right. Thanks Jeannine.

cape henry on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

An odd gift - a portrait of the king's mistress?

Robert Gertz on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

"...not receveing a letter by york makes me fear thare is som hinderance of my daughters [Elizabeth] coming next week. if thare be i shall be very sory for it for i shold be very glad to see her hear as sone as can be."

Hmmn? When did John and Bess become so close? Politeness and necessity of pleasing wealthy son aside, I wonder if John had been given info (by Sam?, by Jane Turner?) as to Bess' support during poor Tom's death?

Or maybe Brampton has just become so dull that even a visit from the French vixen who stole away his boy is a welcome relief.

Robert Gertz on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

Bow, bow to the daughter-in-law elect...

Robert Gertz on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

"...so to bed, where I not well, and so had no pleasure at all with my poor wife."

Lay off the sweetmeats before sex, Sam.

Cumsalisgrano on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

Thank you so much Jeannine for the letter: gives the Samuels text so much flavo[u]or.

"An odd gift - a portrait of the king's mistress?"

NO WAY SHE BE THE PINUP OF THE RESTORATION.

We still like our imperfections.

Mary on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

"..begin I will not."

I think this means, "I will not raise the matter." A bit more weighty than just reference to starting a conversation.

andy on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

... with my poor wife.

as in "...with the old gel" ie she's neither poor nor old.

Robert Gertz on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

"Thence set them down and in their coach to Kate Joyce's christening, where much company, good service of sweetmeates; and after an houre's stay, left them, and in my Lord's coach --his noble, rich coach-- home..."

"Howe? Where the devil is my noble, rich coach?"

Cut to shot of Sam and Bess at the Joyce christening...

"So...Quite a nice coach there, cousin Samuel. Mayhaps we could take a look?" a slightly tipsy Anthony asks.

Ummn...Well...Sam and Bess eye each other.

"Lets all go for a ride!" William suggests, the family group now surging toward the noble, rich coach...Kate bearing the new pride and joy of the Anthony Joyces.

"Would you please not touch the door, William?!" Sam calls from the back of the group...Especially with those sweetmeats grubby hands.

"No, wait Kate!" he tries, seeing Kate's muddy feet starting up the coach step, Anthony and two guests behind her, footwear in similar condition. Driver in his seat giving Pepys a slight, sour frown. Poor Bess swept along with Kate, attempting to politely, then a bit more harshly, suggest they not...Too late.

"Now, please, people!" Sam stumbles aboard, Bess squeezed between the...What is he doing with his hand on her shoulder?... William and Kate..."Oh, God would you not let the baby do that, Kate?!"... Anthony to their side, touching the trim walls with his fingers. Three others seated now on the other side. Oops...He apologetically pulls fingers back from the now stained fabric.

"Will you please not touch..." Oh, my...Sam looks down to see the muck now all over the coach floor.

"'Ey, coachman!" William whaps the ceiling. "Once 'round the square!"

"William, would you please take your hand off my breast?" Bess coldly asks.

"No, now wait!" Sam, still standing, tries to call to the driver. And falls onto Bess...Who at least appreciates the defeat of William's clumsy moves.

"Whooo... 'ere we go, mother's precious! Ooops, oh the wee one's a bit sick. Here, Sam'l, take the baby a moment." Kate hands over the vomiting baby to a staggering Sam. Ha,ha, hah...One of the guests on the other side chuckling as he dodges.

Bess staring at the mess now on the seat Lady Jem had just a short time before told her had been redone with French fabrics at no little expense.

"Pepys has it, my Lord. My Lady lent it him." Howe notes to a slightly peeved Sandwich.

Bradford on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

Did Christie's auction off Lely's painting of Castlemaine on 5 July? Did it sell for the huge amount the owners hoped? I can't find a follow-up on the results anywhere.

moira on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

"....begin I will not" Reminds me of a phrase used here in Cork Ireland-" dont let me get started" meaning if I start on this subject it will become a rant so stop me now! Perhaps Sam is trying to restrain himself!

Clement on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

"...begin I will not"

Moira, I think that Sam was unlikely to rant to his patron, Sandwich, so this likely means that he wouldn't broach a subject that Sandwich seemed to avoid.

Tremendous thanks for the letter, J.

Safely assuming that father John's writing is phoneticly rendered, it gives him a voice that we can imagine we hear, starting with "Dear Soon."

And this is striking: "dear Child I am very much troubled what my lords potiecarries [see note 5] fear is of you-that you have an ulser groeing in your kidnes...and to beg a blesing from the lord that your life may be preserved for what a sad condishan shuld your poor old father and mother be in if the lord shuld tak you before us."
Truly.

Terry F on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

The missing morning

"Up and by water, towards noon, to Somersett House, and walked to my Lord Sandwich's, and there dined with my Lady and the children."

He surely would have recorded (a) a visit to the office; (b) studying shipbuilding; (c) play with the Mrs; (d) physique.

Douglas Robertson on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

"...begin I will not"

It's less about not wanting "to rant to his patron," Moira, than about not wanting to shoot himself in the foot. As Sam is "ashamed of"* his parents' negligent hospitality to the Sandwich children, it would be perverse in him to broach the subject when my Lord is either gracious or forgetful enough not to do so.

*"Young children of my Lord Sandwich gone with their mayds from my mother's, which troubles me, it being, I hear from Mr. Shepley, with great discontent, saying, that though they buy good meate, yet can never have it before it stinks, which I am ashamed of" (30 June 1664).

Michael Robinson on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

Lely's painting of Castlemaine, sold on July 5th. 2007

Painting realized, sterling, 1,588,000 (including premium) against the estimate of sterling 1.5 /2,000,000, not including premium. Sterling/$ at date of sale = 1/2.01

See either the original link:
http://www.christies.com/LotFinde…
Or sale result for Lot 57
http://www.christies.com/auction/…

Terry F on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

"my Lady Castlemayne's picture, finely done"

"Per L&M - who reproduce the Hinchingbrooke version, vol. V opposite p. 200." -- perhaps, Michael, in your hardback edition, but not in my PB. I gather the Lely that sold July 5th. 2007, "Portrait of a young woman and child, as Venus and Cupid, the young woman almost certainly either Barbara Villiers, Countess of Castlemaine, and Duchess of Cleveland (1640-1709), or Nell Gwyn (1650-1687), full-length, naked, beside an urn, a landscape beyond," is not the Lely Pepys saw.

Michael Robinson on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

Lely that sold July 5th. 2007 -- etc.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the painting in today's entry -- merely providing a post in answer to Bradford's question, about the sale of the painting I cited, as perhaps present but certainly concealed, when Pepys viewed the works in the King's closet on June 24th 'and enjoyed no pleasure in the sight of them.' http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Curiouser and curiouser -- an additional difference in the editions of L&M supposed, and published as, 'identical.'

Glyn on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

Thanks Jeannine.

Would the spellings in this letter be phonetic, showing us how the father actually pronounced these words?

I don't understand most of the business in this (nor do I care) but I find the end of the letter particularly heartfelt and touching:

"dear Child I am very much troubled what my lords potiecarries fear is of you-that you have an ulser groeing in your kidnes. for godsak let me beg of you that you will have mr holards' advice and som able docter of his acquantance with as much speed as you can. and to beg a blesing from the lord that your life may be preserved for what a sad condishan shuld your poor old father and mother be in if the lord shuld tak you before us."

Which shows how seriously the rest of the family considered his illness - so he wasn't being a hypochondriac.

It must have been an immense amount of work for Pepys the younger to transcribe this long letter into shorthand for his file - I do wonder if it will be mentioned in a few days' time. Perhaps the lack of capital letters is more to do with Sam's transcription rather than the father's letter.

Glyn on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

Ah, I've just seen Clement's message which already says everything I wanted to say.

Clement on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

Glyn, the similarity in our reflections is a high compliment to me, and evidence to present my wife the next time she (reasonably) questions my sanity.

Dan Jenkins on 11 Jul 2007  •  Link

Thank you so much for the letter, Jeanine. Reading it aloud, as tis writ, does evoke his voice.

Paul Chapin on 12 Jul 2007  •  Link

Michael, thanks for the info about the sale of the Lely painting, about which I was also curious. The Christie's links give no indication of who bought it. Is that known?

Michael Robinson on 12 Jul 2007  •  Link

no indication of who bought it. Is that known?

Auctioneers guard the privacy of their clients combining the rectitude of Liechtenstein lawyers with the rigor of Swiss private bankers.

Given the price, painter, subject matter and date, any removal from the UK would require an export license etc. so there may be necessary filings with the Dept of Culture, Media and Sport.

http://www.culture.gov.uk/Referen…

Michael Robinson on 12 Jul 2007  •  Link

P.S. See also links from:-

http://www.culture.gov.uk/what_we…

Todd Bernhardt on 13 Jul 2007  •  Link

re: The Letter

Wow ... what a mess. Sounds like everyone is trying to get the best of everyone else. Despite the benefits that comes along with being a landowner, I bet Sam sometimes wished he never had anything to do with the Brampton land.

Let me add my thanks, Jeannine, for posting (arf, arf) the letter.

And Michael R, thanks for the link to the "penitent Magdelene"! What a beautiful painting -- the way that the light plays on the satin dress is stunning. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to have the skill to paint that.

Michael Robinson on 13 Jul 2007  •  Link

my Lady Castlemayne's picture, finely done

In days of ease, when now the weary sword
Was sheath'd, and luxury with Charles restor'd;
In ev'ry taste of foreign courts improv'd,
"All, by the King's example, liv'd and lov'd."

Lely on animated canvas stole
The sleepy eye, that spoke the melting soul.
No wonder then, when all was love and sport,
The willing Muses were debauch'd at court:

Pope, Immitations of Horace,
Epistles II, i 139-142, 149-152
http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/po…

JonTom Kittredge on 17 Jul 2007  •  Link

"The Euston version, known as '... the penitent Magdalene'"
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki…
Funny, she doesn't look very penitent to me. But "Castlemaine" is practically a synonym for "humble" and "penitent" isn't it!

Bradford on 17 Jul 2007  •  Link

She could double as an abandoned Ariadne too, or Patience on a Monument, or---rather distractingly on Lely's part, as it draws one's attention away from the face---an ad for the finest importer and purveyor of shimmering silk in the country.

Michael Robinson on 17 Jul 2007  •  Link

"The Euston version, known as '... the penitent Magdalene'"

Cleveland appears in her portraits in a variety of guises: amongst them the Madonna, in widow's weeds, as a shepherdess, as St Barbara and as St Catherine.

The most scandalous being:-
Duchess of Cleveland with her son, Charles Fitzroy, as Madonna and Child,
Peter Lely, c. 1664.

"The painting is a portrait historié, or a portrait showing a recognisable sitter posing in the role of a figure from history or mythology.This portrait, of the King's mistress and bastard as the Madonna and Child, represents the climax of his work in this genre. It could only have been produced at this time and in this place; thus it can be seen as a fitting representation of the values of Charles II's court."
http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search…

.

Senhor Pedro on 23 Jul 2007  •  Link

The Rev Ralph's Diary for the 10th July...

July. 10. God good to me in the word and work of the day, at night called to Major Haynes to baptise his son James , which I willingly did and returned. the King narrowly escaped drowning, July. 5. god can deliver and smite when he pleases
http://linux02.lib.cam.ac.uk/earl…

The King narrowly escaping drowning, have I missed something, or is this a scoop for Ralph?

Michael Robinson on 23 Jul 2007  •  Link

"... is this a scoop for Ralph?"

The King had visited the fleet in the Hope on the 4th. and caught cold the following day; the news was subject to distortion over the four days, and approx 130 mi., travel from Westminster to reach Ralph Josselin in Essex:-

"The reason of Dr. Clerke's not being here was the King's being sicke last night and let blood, and so he durst not come away to- day."
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

"... to hear how the King do, he not having been well these three days. I find that he is pretty well again."
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Bill on 26 May 2017  •  Link

In returning to the large music- or ballroom, for it is used for both these purposes, we must again quote our friend Master Samuel Pepys, who so constantly, all through his Diary, alludes to the beautiful Lady Castlemaine, Barbara Villiers, afterwards Duchess of Cleveland, whose charms evidently exercised a wonderful fascination on the devout Samuel. On July 10th, 1664, he writes: "My Lady Sandwich showed us my Lady Castlemaine's picture, finely done; given my Lord; and a most beautiful picture it is." The portrait, a full length one, is by Sir Peter Lely, and is taken in a sitting position with one arm raised, the head resting on the hand. It is a delicate oval face, with dark hair and eyes, no trace, in the mild and rather dreamy expression, of the imperious and ambitious nature which ruled a king and gave years of anxiety to courtiers.
---The English Illustrated Magazine. vol.5, 1888.

Bill on 26 May 2017  •  Link

Here, from the British Museum, is a black and white "photogravure" reproduction of the Barbara Villiers portrait at Hinchingbrooke (with a crazy url): http://www.britishmuseum.org/rese…

Terry Foreman on 27 May 2017  •  Link

Barbara Villiers portrait at Hinchingbrooke (Google images)
https://www.google.com/search?q=B…

Bill on 27 May 2017  •  Link

Terry, which one of those images do you think is at Hinchingbrooke?

Terry Foreman on 27 May 2017  •  Link

Bill, I should have posted the images link with a question-mark. The B&W image of Barbara Villiers as the penitent Magdalen.was acquired by the British Museum in 1901. I wonder when the portrait was last at Hinchingbrooke House: in 1962 the House was sold to the county council; in 1970 it became the home of Hinchingbrooke School http://www.hinchingbrookeschool.n…

The image of Barbara Villiers as the penitent Magdalen is on her Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar…
which credits it to an archived webpage of Euston Hall:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar…

JayW on 11 Jul 2017  •  Link

Although Hinchingbrooke House is now occupied by the school, the grounds are open to the public as a Country Park, where I spent last Sunday with my own family. See http://www.huntingdonshire.gov.uk…

Terry Foreman on 15 Jul 2017  •  Link

Jeannine Kerwin compile and posted The Inventory of the Tailor Shop and the later part is Tom's endorsement of it dated August 25, 1661.

It has a new location on this site. It is now here:
http://www.pepysdiary.com/indepth…