Monday 15 August 1664

Up, and with Sir J. Minnes by coach to St. James’s, and there did our business with the Duke, who tells us more and more signs of a Dutch warr, and how we must presently set out a fleete for Guinny, for the Dutch are doing so, and there I believe the warr will begin. Thence home with him again, in our way he talking of his cures abroad, while he was with the King as a doctor, and above all men the pox. And among others, Sir J. Denham he told me he had cured, after it was come to an ulcer all over his face, to a miracle.

To the Coffee-house I, and so to the ’Change a little, and then home to dinner with Creed, whom I met at the Coffee-house, and after dinner by coach set him down at the Temple, and I and my wife to Mr. Blagrave’s. They being none of them at home; I to the Hall, leaving her there, and thence to the Trumpett, whither came Mrs. Lane, and there begins a sad story how her husband, as I feared, proves not worth a farthing, and that she is with child and undone, if I do not get him a place. I had my pleasure here of her, and she, like an impudent jade, depends upon my kindness to her husband, but I will have no more to do with her, let her brew as she has baked, seeing she would not take my counsel about Hawly. After drinking we parted, and I to Blagrave’s, and there discoursed with Mrs. Blagrave about her kinswoman, who it seems is sickly even to frantiqueness sometimes, and among other things chiefly from love and melancholy upon the death of her servant, [Servant = lover] insomuch that she telling us all most simply and innocently I fear she will not be able to come to us with any pleasure, which I am sorry for, for I think she would have pleased us very well. In comes he, and so to sing a song and his niece with us, but she sings very meanly. So through the Hall and thence by coach home, calling by the way at Charing Crosse, and there saw the great Dutchman that is come over, under whose arm I went with my hat on, and could not reach higher than his eye-browes with the tip of my fingers, reaching as high as I could. He is a comely and well-made man, and his wife a very little, but pretty comely Dutch woman. It is true, he wears pretty high-heeled shoes, but not very high, and do generally wear a turbant, which makes him show yet taller than really he is, though he is very tall, as I have said before. Home to my office, and then to supper, and then to my office again late, and so home to bed, my wife and I troubled that we do not speed better in this business of her woman.

36 Annotations

First Reading

Nix  •  Link

"And among others, Sir J. Denham he told me he had cured, after it was come to an ulcer all over his face" --

I guess medical confidentiality hadn't been invented yet. A modern physician who bragged or gossiped like this would be up on charges before the licensing board.

Nix  •  Link

"I will have no more to do with her, let her brew as she has baked" --

Somehow, Samuel, I don't believe you. You have a hard enough time keeping your vows about the theatre, and Betty seems to be quite a bit more entertaining.

Bradford  •  Link

He really is very, very tall,
With his high-heeled shoes, and his turban, and all!

Picture to yourself Our Sam (height, please?) on tiptoe reaching up to touch this fellow's eyebrows, which rather sounds as if he had risked poking him in the eye. Oh, the fascination of the exotic Other!

JWB  •  Link

"A short, squat man"

-so Sam described himself. Tomalin calculated ~ 5'1'', in that in 1669 he stood under under the outstretched arm of "the great woman" who Sam reported @6'5''.

jeannine  •  Link

Height--I do believe we've had this discussion before and Sam is about 5 feet tall. The Dutchman must be pretty tall as Sam notes it specifically. Charles II is about 6' tall, Prince Rupert about 6'4" and Ormond's son, Ossory (or Ossery in this site's encyclopedia) is around 6'5". Where I can't recall Sam every particularly noting their height, the Great Dutchman must be REALLY tall.

Rupert, in particular was noted by his biographers for his height and stature, so much so, that on one occasion while preparing for flight Charles I told Rupert that he could not accompany him because he would stand out too much (sorry don't have book handy to find exact place/time, just recall that this stuck in my mind!).

Terry F  •  Link

"the Duke...tells us...we must presently set out a fleete for Guinny, for the Dutch are doing so,"

How intelligence re the Dutch plans travels
Thursday 11 August Pedro posted: Today in Den Haag (Terry)

I think the date must be corrected to 1/11 August Sam's time, but a little more not mentioned...

The resolution was taken by the States General and at once communicated to the Amsterdam Admiralty. Letters were sent in deep secrecy with three separate express messengers to Cadiz, Malaga and Alicante, and written on the outside was that De Ruyter should not open them unless he was alone.

(Life of Admiral De Ruyter by Blok)
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Terry F  •  Link

"To the Coffee-house I, and so to the 'Change a little"

Anyone else get the idea that SP usually goes to the SAME coffee-house near the 'Change?

***

Pity Elizabeth won't get a musically-trained companion soon.

Paul Chapin  •  Link

the great Dutchman, aka the German giant, 9 1/2 feet tall

From Edward J. Wood, "Giants and dwarfs":

Pepys, on August 15th, 1664, was "at Charing-cross, and there saw the great Dutchman that is come over, under whose arm I went with my hat on, and could not reach higher than his cye-browes with the tip of my fingers. He is a comely and well-made man, and his wife a very little but pretty comely Dutch woman. It is true, he wears pretty high-heeled shoes, but not very high, and do generally wear a turban, which makes him show yet taller than really he is."

In 1664 was published an engraving of this giant and his wife; he is described as being a German, and nine feet and a half high. Appended are English verses in several compartments.

The following is a copy of an original handbill announcing the exhibition of tliis man; on it was an engraving representing him with his wife on one side holding his hand ; and on the other a male spectator, whose arm the giant was spanning; his thumb and finger reaching from the point of the man's extended forefinger to the bend of his arm.

"The true Effigies of the German Giant, now to be seen at the Swan, near Charing Cross, whose stature is nine foot and a half in height, and the span of his hand a cubit compleat. He goes from place to place with his wife, who is but of an ordinary stature, and takes money for the shew of her husband."

http://books.google.com/books?id=…

And there is a portrait of this gentleman, named M. Christopher Miller, at http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/…
Scroll down about halfway through the long page, past pictures of other prodigies of the past. Unfortunately this picture of Miller has no humans of ordinary stature beside him as a point of reference. I did not find an image of the handbill Wood referred to.

bitter o salt  •  Link

"...while he was with the King as a doctor, and above all men the pox. And among others, Sir J. Denham he told me he had cured, after it was come to an ulcer all over his face, to a miracle...."
The Pox usually had a descriptive of Great, or other appendages of the derogatory sought, or or could be written with a BIG P.
OED
b. Syphilis. Freq. with distinguishing word, as French pox, great pox, etc.
1503 Privy Purse Exp. Eliz. of York (1830) 105 A Surgeon whiche heled him of the Frenche pox.

1623 J. TAYLOR (Water-P.) Praise Hemp-seed 7 Many a Gallant..Hath got the Spanish pip,..or the Scottish fleas, or English Pox, for al's but one disease.

some cures claimed.
b. A preparation of mercury used medicinally, esp. as a treatment for syphilis (cf. MERCURY n. 7b) (now rare or hist.). Later also: any compound containing mercury.

1676 R. WISEMAN Severall Chirurg. Treat. VII. iv. 40 By Mercurials we do more certainly resolve them [sc. nodes] and in a less time.
1716 M. DAVIES Athenæ Britannicæ II. 352 The great Pox, which can scarce ever be cur'd without Viperals or Mercurials. 1733

A medicament derived from the viper.
1716 M. DAVIES Athen. Brit. II. 352 The great Pox which can scarce ever be cur'd without Viperals or Mercurials....

1611 FLORIO, Pigliare il legno, to take the *wood or dyet drinke for the pox. 1696 FLOYER ...

Michael Robinson  •  Link

Complete text of the handbill Wood referred to.

The complete text & verse of the broadside is given in Edgerton Brydges 'The British Bibliographer' London: 1814 pp. 276-8. See link below.

Brydges gives a date of '1660' in the imprint; this is incorrect, the apparently unique copy in the Bodleian (Oxford) [Wood B 35 (24)] is dated 1664 in their catalog.

http://books.google.com/books?id=…

Michael Robinson  •  Link

"German" giant -- image of the handbill

Only possibility of a reproduction I can find is on the microfilm:-
Early English books, 1641-1700; 2778:19. [Wing (CD-ROM, 1996), T2692]
Microfilm. Ann Arbor, Mich. : UMI, 2001.

It may be available online, to those with subscription access to the digital edition 'Early English Books On Line'
http://eebo.chadwyck.com/home

Ruben  •  Link

"How intelligence re the Dutch plans travels
Thursday 11 August Pedro posted"

Just possible: the Duke is reading our annotators comments...

Pedro  •  Link

Height.

And old Longshanks was 6ft 2ins.

jeannine  •  Link

Paul

Thanks for the pic of the German Giant-with the headpiece he probably added another foot, which was probably good for business!

language hat  •  Link

"I had my pleasure here of her, and she, like an impudent jade, depends upon my kindness to her husband, but I will have no more to do with her, let her brew as she has baked..."

Sometimes it's hard to like Sam.

Bradford  •  Link

"let her brew as she has baked": mix that metaphor?

One wonders if the German Giant's headgear had, as its natural model, a pineapple, whose shape could be easily adorned with further fronds and feathers. Superb site, Paul C.

language hat  •  Link

"'let her brew as she has baked': mix that metaphor?"

It does seem slightly mixed, but it was an old expression even in Pepys' time. OED:

brew 1.d.
d. absol. (often in proverbial expressions: cf. BAKE v. 6.)
[...] 1451 Pol. Poems (1859) II. 230 Let hem drynk as they hanne brewe. [...] 1612 Pasquil's Night-Cap (1877) 82 You must drinke As you have bru'd; bee it small or strong. 1652 Proc. Parliament No. 138. 2162 The Admirall.. said, that as they brewed so they should bake. 1878 SPURGEON Treas. Dav. Ps. cix. 17 As he brewed, so let him drink.

bake 6.
6. Phrases and proverbs[...] as they brew, so let them bake: as they begin, so let them proceed.
[...] 1599 PORTER Angry Wom. Abingd. (1841) 82 Euen as they brew, so let them bake. 1675 COTTON Scoff. Scoft 150, I should do very imprudently.. Either to meddle or to make: But as they brew, so let 'um bake. [...]

Todd Bernhardt  •  Link

re: mix that metaphor

LH, perhaps it's because the brewer and baker often started with the same ingredients?

language hat  •  Link

Good point, and I can see how "as they brew, so let them bake" could mean, say, 'if they're going to act that way in one respect, let them act that way all the time,' but it's hard to see how it gets the meaning 'as they begin, so let them proceed' -- except, of course, that people use idioms for sound, not logic.

Cum Grano Salis  •  Link

my take for wot it be worth: it takes wheat [corn in local parlance] to start the process of making flour, and takes barley [corn in local parlance] to make beer.
so bothe parties have to go to the corn dehusker for their needs, one for mash, the other for powder.
Corn as moderns know it is maize for the cattle, not for known for making pipes or making of grits..

We must vnderstand this authoritie with a corne of salt [L. cum grano salis] otherwise it may bee vnsauorie)
I. gen. A grain, a seed.

1. a. gen. A small hard particle, a grain, as of sand or salt. In OE. and mod. dial. (In literary use in 16-17th c., chiefly transl. L. gr{amac}num.)

2. spec. The small hard seed or fruit of a plant; now only with contextual specification or defining attribute, as in barley-corn, pepper-corn, etc. a. A seed of one of the cereals, as of wheat, rye, barley, etc.

Cum Grano Salis  •  Link

Rehash of "mix that metaphor" be it mash or be it bread;
before thee takes thy corn, you must decide what you will have as a final product, so that when thee take ones corn, thee must know want thee want, for if it be soaked it cannot be thy daily bread or if ground into flour it cannot be thy daily brew.
In other words a "B***** mess".
Beer from flour or bread from mash.
corn be the corny answer.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"“‘let her brew as she has baked’: mix that metaphor?”
"It does seem slightly mixed, but it was an old expression even in Pepys’ time. "

And a mix in a traditional song about courting:

Wee Cooper of Fife

There was a wee cooper who lived in fife
Nickety, nockety, noo, noo, noo
And he has gotten a gentle wife
Hey Willie Wallacky, hey John Dougall
Alane quo' rushety, roo, roo, roo

She wouldna bake, she wouldna brew
Nickety, nockety, noo, noo, noo
For spoiling o' her comely hue
Hey Willie Wallacky, hey John Dougall
Alane quo' rushety, roo, roo, roo

Here are the other 8 stanzas and a midi file of the melody: http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk…

Second Reading

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"he was with the King as a doctor, and above all men the pox. And among others, Sir J. Denham he told me he had cured, after it was come to an ulcer all over his face, to a miracle. "

Mennes had no medical training, but was an amateur of chemistry and anatomy. (L&M footnote)

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Not a good idea to spread gossip like this on your "patients":

"Sir John Mennes was satirized by Sir John Denham, whose poem about Mennes going from Calais to Boulogne to 'eat a pig' is mentioned by Pepys in his diary."

"In 1667 Sir John Denham suffered a bout of madness, the cause has never been clearly determined, although some have suggested that it was brought on by his wife's infidelity."

From: http://www.enotes.com/john-denham…

"Daniel Turner (1667-1741) was the first English medical author to use the term syphilis, as well as recommend the use of the ‘condum’ to prevent transmission. However the name syphilis was not in general use until the 19th century. Until then the disease was usually called the French disease, French pox, Spanish pox, or just 'the pox'.

"The disease had distinct phases. The first began with genital sores, or
'pocks', later called chancres. After these had healed and several weeks later there appeared a general rash, often accompanied by fevers, aches and night bone pains. As well, a rash of verrucous papules often broke out in the genital area. When these healed, a long latent period occurred, initially lasting months and later, several years when there were few symptoms. Finally abscesses and ulcers appeared, and Girolamo Fracastoro's gumma, often ending with severe debility, madness or death. It was this phase of syphilis that was greatly feared, because of the disfigurement and social ostracism that ensued. It was viewed by ordinary people as a sign of sin, for which they were shunned and punished.

"Mercury had been used as a treatment for epidemic diseases since Guy de Chauliac (physician to the Pope in Avignon), advocated its use in his work La Grande Chirurgie in 1363, and this became the accepted treatment for syphilis.

"Paracelsus (1493-1541) ... promoted mercury ... After a time he did recognize its toxicity when administered as an elixir and resorted to using it either as an ointment made from metallic mercury and rubbed into the skin, or as a suffumigation, the inhalation of and bathing of the body in fumes, or both. Many physicians doubted the efficacy of mercury, especially as it had terrible side effects and many died of mercury poisoning. Beck (1997) describes a typical mercury treatment:

“A patient undergoing the treatment was secluded in a hot, stuffy room, and rubbed vigorously with the mercury ointment several times a day. The massaging was done near a hot fire, which the sufferer was then left next to in order to sweat. This process went on for a week to a month or more, and would later be repeated if the disease persisted. Other toxic substances, such as vitriol and arsenic, were also employed, but their curative effects were equally in doubt.”

From, http://jmvh.org/article/syphilis-…

No wonder patients went "mad".

Sasha Clarkson  •  Link

"let her brew as she has baked"

An interesting phrase to use in an era before brewers' yeast had supplanted sourdough for the leavening of bread!

BTW, in Britain, having "a bun in the oven" is a euphemism for pregnancy. I don't know how old the phrase is, or whether it's used in America.

Louise Hudson  •  Link

It is used in the states, Sasha, and that's the first thing I thought of when Pepys wrote, "let her brew as she has baked." Naturally, it was women who "got themselves pregnant."

Mary K  •  Link

Another English euphemism for pregnancy, though much less common than the above is, "she's been eating fresh bread."

Sasha Clarkson  •  Link

I've not heard that one Mary :)

Thank you Louise:
now we know that "bun in the oven" is a US expression too, that rather implies that it's an old phrase. I'll check in my OED later.

Yes - it's remarkable how many women allegedly "get themselves pregnant", despite human parthenogenesis being somewhere between rare and impossible ...

Clark Kent  •  Link

Another colorful euphemism used in the U.S. to describe what I gather the British call "being up the spout" is "looking for pups." Occasionally, jests referencing the ingestion of watermelon seeds are to be heard.

Lex Lector  •  Link

The Dutch: then as now the tallest people in Europe. Reason? Very flat landscape: less gravity? Discuss!

Mary K  •  Link

"up the spout"

Haven't come across that one, though "up the duff" is generally well recognised (with suggestions that "duff' represents a wayward version of "dough.") If so, that would get us back to the bread/baking source area.

Chris Squire UK  •  Link

Re: ‘ . . let her brew as she has baked . . ’:

‘bake, v. < Common Germanic . .
. . 6. . . as they brew, so let them bake: as they begin, so let them proceed.
1599   H. Porter Pleasant Hist. Two Angrie Women of Abington(1841) 82   Euen as they brew, so let them bake.
1652   Severall Proc. Parl. No. 138. 2162   The Admirall..said, that as they brewed so they should bake.
1675   C. Cotton Burlesque upon Burlesque 150   I should do very imprudently..Either to meddle or to make: But as they brew, so let 'um bake.’

(OED)

Steven Scrivener  •  Link

This brew/bake imagery brings to mind one of the riddles from the Exeter Book (Krapp-Dobbie #45):

I have heard of something wax in a corner,
swell and pop, lift up the covers.
A proud-minded woman seized with her hands
that boneless thing, a prince’s daughter;
covered with her dress the swelling thing.
(trans. Paull Franklin Baum, taken from Wikipedia)

The usual answer commentators give is dough/bread. In Old English, there is a lot of wordplay going on. "Prince" here in OE is theod, "prince/lord", synonymous with OE hlaford, "lord", but etymologically "loaf-keeper". The daughter of the loaf-keeper might make the dough, covering it with a cloth ("her dress") while it rises. However, "the swelling thing" has also been interpreted as the swelling of the belly containing the "boneless thing" (first/second trimester according to AS medical understanding); or seized "the boneless thing" soon after having lifted the covers can alternatively be interpreted as the penis. In this riddle, then, "the prince's daughter" seems to anticipate the farmer's daughter jokes. (If it seems that I'm trying to get words do double service, the syntax in OE is very different, and, of course, lacks modern punctuation, so I'm just raising the possibilities.)

Anyway, it would seem that Sam was employing a turn of phrase which drew on what was then a very old tradition.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Well done, Steve. I think you interpreted Sam's allusions correctly.

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