Monday 3 October 1664
Up with Sir J. Minnes, by coach, to St. James’s; and there all the newes now of very hot preparations for the Dutch: and being with the Duke, he told us he was resolved to make a tripp himself, and that Sir W. Pen should go in the same ship with him. Which honour, God forgive me! I could grudge him, for his knavery and dissimulation, though I do not envy much the having the same place myself. Talke also of great haste in the getting out another fleete, and building some ships; and now it is likely we have put one another by each other’s dalliance past a retreate.
Thence with our heads full of business we broke up, and I to my barber’s, and there only saw Jane and stroked her under the chin, and away to the Exchange, and there long about several businesses, hoping to get money by them, and thence home to dinner and there found Hawly. But meeting Bagwell’s wife at the office before I went home I took her into the office and there kissed her only. She rebuked me for doing it, saying that did I do so much to many bodies else it would be a stain to me. But I do not see but she takes it well enough, though in the main I believe she is very honest. So after some kind discourse we parted, and I home to dinner, and after dinner down to Deptford, where I found Mr. Coventry, and there we made, an experiment of Holland’s and our cordage, and ours outdid it a great deale, as my book of observations tells particularly. Here we were late, and so home together by water, and I to my office, where late, putting things in order. Mr. Bland came this night to me to take his leave of me, he going to Tangier, wherein I wish him good successe.
So home to supper and to bed, my mind troubled at the businesses I have to do, that I cannot mind them as I ought to do and get money, and more that I have neglected my frequenting and seeming more busy publicly than I have done of late in this hurry of business, but there is time left to recover it, and I trust in God I shall.
33 Annotations
First Reading
Terry F • Link
Absent Dirk. from the Carte Calendar
William Coventry to Sandwich
Written from: St James's
Date: 3 October 1664
Shelfmark: MS. Carte 75, fol(s). 226
Document type: Holograph
Sends further particulars of the progress of impressment in the West of England; and of the speedy sailing of the Fleet under Prince Rupert. Adds that H.R.H. the Lord Admiral intends to go to sea himself. The Flag-ship is not definitely chosen, but is to be commanded by Sir W. Penn.
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/s…
jeannine • Link
From "Samuel Pepys and the Second Dutch War" the section entitled "the Navy White Book" edited by Latham
Octobr 3, 1664. Our cordage upon trial found stronger than the Hollands. This day, Mr. Coventry and myself being at Deptford, we made a trial of strength between our cordage and that of Holland, by cutting off two fathom of each sort of two inch beginning (within a tenth of an inch): the first that was tried was the Hollands, and that it bore 17 ¼ cwt before it broke. Then the English of our making, and that bore 24 3/4 cwt before it broke - both, as near as we could, hanging the same time to stretch, and stretching alike. Then we tried with the same length of another Hollands cable of the same beginning and that bore 20 ½ cwt before it broke. So, contrary to the report from the other yards, ours doth prove the strongest, though Mr. Coventry came with some expectations (and in some degree wishes that the other might prove very good, because of his being instrumental in the buying of it) to find it otherwise.
jeannine • Link
"She rebuked me for doing it, saying that did I do so much to many bodies else it would be a stain to me"
A rather foretelling comment to Sam from Mrs. Bagwell. Once the pages of Sam's Diary were translated he gained the reputation of being a womanizer. That reputation seems to have stuck in the minds of much of the general population.
Todd Bernhardt • Link
re: that sentence above
Actually, I'm having a hard time parsing it ... I think it's the placement of the "else." Can someone help? Jeannine? Anyone? Bueller?
Robert Gertz • Link
"But meeting Bagwell's wife at the office before I went home I took her into the office and there kissed her only. She rebuked me for doing it, saying that did I do so much to many bodies else it would be a stain to me. But I do not see but she takes it well enough, though in the main I believe she is very honest."
I think the "many bodies else" must be a mistake for "anybody else". Revealing, actually... Mrs. Bagwell seems almost fatalistic about her fate with our lecherous Mr. P. I suppose William B is pressing her hard to "be nice" to the little... And no doubt her report of today's kiss will encourage him to press harder.
Bradford • Link
"did I do so much to many bodies else":
if I did the same thing to a great number of other (women's) bodies
A little archaic even then? Hint of dialect, or class?
Martin • Link
"saying that did I do so much to many bodies else it would be a stain to me"
In other words: Pepys, if you do that to a lot of other women, it doesn't reflect well on you.
Cum grano salis • Link
just the Seven year itch.
"...She rebuked me for doing it, saying that did I do so much to many bodies else it would be a stain to me...."
I think it be more of her comment meaning , she be ok with a little harassment as long she be the only that gets the peck, not all the other married gals.
Terry F • Link
For some reason L&M "repl. any" with "many" -- though they note that in and at the bottom of the text with a small superscript a.
Andrew Hamilton • Link
did I do so much to many bodies else
Emphasis here is on "many bodies" rather than "anybody," so I doubt it's an error. Just as Sam says he's struggling to get his mind on business, and deplores the "dalliance" -or attendance to private business -- of his colleagues, he is distracted by the sudden appearances of Betty, Jane and Mrs. Bagwell. Many bodies indeed. Wonder if they talk to each other?
Australian Susan • Link
Wonder why Sam reports Mrs B's speech? Doesn't reflect well on either of them (or this the 21st century construct getting in the way again?) And what exactly is she rebuking? The kiss itself? Kissing her in particular? Sam seems to think it's all right to do this as she is enjoying it was far as he can tell and his final remark about her being honest, means I think, she won't gossip or, worse, blackmail, but as it is his last recorded comment on the incident, I think it looms large. Fondling Jane (openly?)at the barber's and kissing Mrs Bagwell in the office (where, I wonder?) seems for Sam to be behaviours within the usual measure of acceptance for those days.
Cum grano salis • Link
acceptance, these days those days? It be mute, 'twas the lot of the female with one of the betters, be like the Jane and avoid whenever possible, we will never know the thoughts of either female, it be all about surviving and having a food for thy tum tum. Martyrs for the cause of hurt feeling and worse, were few and far between, except when thee have a backing of a group like the Quakers, to stand up to the daily indignities of living.
Life was and is a jungle and to survive, one had to use differing techniques to avoid the pitfalls.
Paul Chapin • Link
Martin has it right: "many bodies else" = "many other people"
OED "else", sense 1.b.:
1. a. A synonym of other, used in connexion with indef., rel., or interrog. pronouns, or with words or phrases equivalent to any of these, such as anything, nothing, everything, anybody, some one; also with all (absol.), much, little, a great deal.
b. In the same sense, referring to a n., chiefly preceded by an adj. correlative with one of the pronouns, etc. mentioned in 1. Formerly common; now only poet. or arch.
(Modern usage permits us to say 'Have you seen anybody else?' 'have you read anything else?' because body and thing have lost their substantival force; but not 'Have you seen any soldier else?' 'have you read any book else?')
971 Blickl. Hom. 39 Hwylc beren mænde he þonne elles buton heofona rice? 1340-70 Alex. & Dind. 1017 Þo bostful dedeus+Schal Šou procre to pryde & to no profit ellus. 1538 Bale God's Promises in Dodsley (1780) I. 25 The adders ded stynge other wycked persones els In wonderfull numbre. 1577 T. Vautrollier Luther on Ep. Gal. 92 Sharpe chidings and bitter wordes are as necessary+as any other vertue els. 1613 Purchas Pilgr., Descr. India (1864) 19 Hee is Lord of all nor hath any else possession of any thing, but at the will of the King. 1615 Chapman Odyss. xvii. 186 By force She kept his person from all else recourse. 1803 Wordsworth Airey-Force Valley Wks. VI. 33 Where all things else are still and motionless. 1827 Pollok Course T. x, This silence+Was now forgot, and every silence else.
Jesse • Link
"having the same place myself"
Really? If 'The Flag-ship is ... to be commanded by Sir W. Penn' then that to me seems a little different then "that Sir W. Pen should go in the same ship with him."
Tony Eldridge • Link
did I do so much to many bodies
I have not done the research but I get the impression that Sam is more romantically active at the time of the month when Elizabeth is not available. Perhaps he considers he has more justification when he can't claim his conjugal 'rights'? After all, we know what skill he has in justifying other misdemeanors to himself.
Robert Gertz • Link
I'm trying to picture "Capt'n" Pepys commanding the fleet flagship in place of Penn. Hmmn...Perhaps tis best our boy sticks to what he knows.
***
Hard to say about Mrs. Bagwell...As the matter progresses (spoiler) there does seem an element of calculation in it from her side, though that may all be William's doing. She protests but she keeps coming back, soliciting favor, offering just a bit more with each visit. Innocent as she may be, Mr. Bagwell is certainly playing Sam carefully.
Interesting to compare this to poor Bess' relations with dear Uncle Wight...We don't know from Sam how she felt about having to continue to spend time with dear Aunt and Uncle after his "indecent proposal" but given her "warm answer" earlier she can't have been too overjoyed. What's worse...Sam, a secure man with powerful patrons, pressing his wife to dance attendance on his wealthy, lecherous uncle, though (hopefully) not insisting she fulfill all Uncle's desires or Will Bagwell, a carpenter, unsecure and poor, a step from starvation and prison should dear Mr. Pepys become offended with him, pressing his to do whatever it takes to get favor from his lecherous superior.
Robert Gertz • Link
What Sam didn't tell us about his visit to the barber...
"Urggh...Jane...Please..."
"Now, sir, hold still. We wouldn't want me hand to slip and you to go bleedin' all over your pretty suit, would we, sir?"
"Urgghhh...Jane..."
"Sorry, me hand just won't hold still when I'm upset, sir. Now, you know I likes you, sir, though I'm sorry to say I'm not so fond as to go walkin' with you...Though I did appreciate the compliment and hope you didn't take offense at me holdin' off, sir. But I do hates to see you lowering yourself, cheapenin' a poor girl, sir."
"No...Yes...Urggh...Janne..."
"Just a little more, sir. Now, sir, I don't minds a pat or two from the customers, sir but we don't want to always be botherin' a poor girl, do we, sir? Ungentlemanly I calls it, makin' the customers think all sorts of low things about the girl. Not at all becomin' to you, sir."
"Arrggh..."
"So we'll have no more of it, eh...Sir?"
"Yeees...No, I mean...Right...Jane?!"
"That's it, sir. Good day to you, sir. Hope the Missus Pepys is well, sir."
Arrgh...Well. I don't find the girl so attractive at that...And I have business to mind. Yes.
'Sides I did manage to stroke her under the chin. Yes, ha!
No need to enter the other business in today's entry.
andy • Link
Sam the groper:
"did I do so much to many bodies else it would be a stain to me"
ie Warning: if you're doing this to everyone you'd better watch out.
Mrs B is being firm and rebukes Sam tactfully without giving offence, but her behaviour indicates she doesn't like it and isn't avaialable.
Jane's already made it clear how she feels about Sam's wandering hands.
What's the correlation between Bess' monthlies and Sam's sexual adventures?
Bradford • Link
Surely a kiss is not just a kiss, especially when there's no sigh following.
Cum grano salis • Link
"Perhaps tis best our boy sticks to what he knows."
The Master of the boat did not need to have knowledge of " sow westers" , as long he has good eye for an impecunious one that does and has cash to get the job done.
A spoiler : it be Mr Peeps that instigates the education of many bodies to be qualified Sailors from the ranks of lessors with abilities to sail the seven seas rather than ships be in the hands of totally monied laudly types, although nepotism never completely dies.
Cromwell has shown the way but privileges of the landed ones dies hard, Charles duo appreciates those with ability that came thru the ranks rather than those that relied on their DNA azure tainted blood rather than aqua salinated blud.
[one Morgan comes to mind]
Robert Gertz • Link
But I still wouldn't put him in as captain of the Lord High Admiral's flagship, CGS. (Even if he will one day (spoiler) be a captain of sorts for a time).
On the other hand, Penn can't measure timber and probably stinks at the office paperwork. Each to his own...
Pedro • Link
"Which honour, God forgive me! I could grudge him, for his knavery and dissimulation, though I do not envy much the having the same place myself."
You are right Sam, a bit of knavery and dissimulation may come in handy when faced with the enemy.
Carl in Boston • Link
Upon the trial of the ropes:
As Jeannine says: the first that was tried was the Hollands, and that it bore 17 ¼ cwt before it broke. The others were 20 and 24 and so on. Sam stopped testing his own when it won at 24. If he tried again, he could have found 17. He quit testing when he was ahead.
In these days, a government specification would be something like "15 or better", and anyone who can produce a rope that hangs "15" is eligible for selling. Both sellers would have been eligible sellers. It is not lawful for the government to produce a spec which only one maker can meet. All this is new stuff, and modern science. Pepys is going along in the first development of purchase specifications, and shows how he became a good and useful President of The Royal Society (of Science).
Xjy • Link
"many bodies else" ... "stain"
ie a warning that he'd better be careful - she can hold her tongue but some women might let the wrong things slip (tongues rather than knickers...).
Bit superfluous given Sam's callous care for number one - Betty roaming too close and familiar gets warned off from public approach without hubby in tow.
Interesting to see how long-term Sam's sexual taste is - not one for brief encounters really. Anyone named as a likely target usually crops up again and again and gets manoeuvred into arm's length one way or another. Obviously expedient for both parties as well as sufficiently attractive/exciting/rewarding. Bit like observing the amatory negotiations of other primates of middle rank.
Planning (plotting/dreaming) over time was perhaps easier then - less geographical mobility. Risk of groomees being whisked off by the Plague etc, but otherwise walking distance and findable.
Second Reading
Terry Foreman • Link
"being with the Duke, he told us he was resolved to make a tripp himself, and that Sir W. Pen should go in the same ship with him."
In a letter of 4 October to Sandwich, Pepys, remarking (as he does here) that 'the business now grows very hot between the Dutch and us', told of the preparations to set forth a fleet of 17 sail under the Duke in the Royal James, with Penn as her commander: Further Corr., pp.27-8. This was James's first taste of command at sea. He put himself at the head of Sandwich's and Rupert's squadron in the Solent on 11 November, and stayed at sea, daring the Dutch to come out of harbour, until the end of November: CSPD 1664-5, p. 96. Penn shifted his flag to the Charles when the Duke went aboard her on the 18th: ob., pp. 75, 76, 81. (L&M footnote)
Terry Foreman • Link
"Talke also of great haste in the getting out another fleete, and building some ships"
The Admiralty Committee of the Privy Council now drew up a programme of shipbuilding: for the Admiral's comments (13 November), see CSPD 1664-5, p. 67. Meantime reports of the fitting out of ships poured in from the dockyards (7 October, ib., p.27) and 37 were made ready or nearly ready to sail a month later: ib., p. 57. (L&M footnote)
Terry Foreman • Link
"down to Deptford, where I found Mr. Coventry, and there we made, an experiment of Holland’s and our cordage, and ours outdid it a great deale, as my book of observations tells particularly."
NWB, p. 16 (3 October). Coventry was bot too pleased, since he had been instrumental in buying Dutch cordage. (L&M note)
Terry Foreman • Link
"Mr. Bland came this night to me to take his leave of me, he going to Tangier"
John Bland went as a merchant; he served as the first mayor in 1668-9, and later became Comptroller of His Majesty's Revenues there. (L&M note)
StanB • Link
She rebuked me for doing it, saying that did I do so much to many bodies else it would be a stain to me.
Well my first impression on reading this was that Mrs B is saying to Sam she did not want to be tarred with the same brush along with any other possible women he may have dalliances with should it become public , I'm probably wrong
Was Sam's philandering common knowledge amongst his circle ?
Mary K • Link
Mrs. Bagwell's warning.
Together with XJY above, I think that Mrs. B. is giving Samuel a direct warning that it might harm his career/reputation if others were to know as much about his carryings-on with various women as she does. When Samuel notes that "in the main I believe she is very honest" it sounds to me as if he has his fingers crossed as he expresses the belief that she will deal honestly (i.e. discreetly) with him.
Tonyel • Link
Can't shake off an image of Captain Pepys going into battle with the Dutch and marshalling his crew:
"All together lads, Our ropes are better than your ropes! your sails are rubbish too! "
Chris Squire UK • Link
Re: ‘ . . by each other’s dalliance . . “
‘dalliance, n. < Old French . .
. . †4. Waste of time in trifling, idle delay. Obs.
. . 1616 Shakespeare Comedy of Errors (1623) iv. i. 59 My businesse cannot brooke this dalliance .
(OED)
…………...
“ . . My old man said: "Foller the van,
And don't dilly-dally on the way".
Off went the van wiv me 'ome packed in it.
I walked be'ind wiv me old cock linnet.
But I dillied and dallied,
Dallied and dillied;
Lost me way and don't know where to roam.
And you can't trust a "Special"
Like the old-time copper
When you can't find your way home . . “
Don't Dilly Dally - old English music hall song
Bill • Link
many bodies else = many bodies before/already
ELSE. otherwise; before, already.
---N. Bailey. An universal etymological English dictionary, 1734