Terry Foreman on 21 Feb 2008  •  Link

Catholic intrigue

Bennet to Ormond
Written from: Whitehall

Date: 21 February 1665
....
The King seems to purpose, with respect to Colonel [Richard] Talbot,
http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo…
to order him to be taken out of the Tower, but not to see him or to permit his return to Court.

Notices the prorogation of Parliament; and the purport of intelligence received from France.

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/s…

Terry Foreman on 21 Feb 2008  •  Link

Medway Navigation.

Mr. Milward reports from the Committee to which the Bill, sent from the Lords, for making navigable the River Medway in the County of Kent and Sussex, . . . . some Amendments agreed to be made, and Provisoes to be added, to the Bill: Which he read, with the Coherence, in his Place; and after delivered the same at the Clerk's Table: Which were twice read;.... Resolved, &c. Resolved, &c. That the Proviso, so amended, be agreed to. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/…

No prorogation of Parliament, contra Bennet?

jeannine on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

What mad freaks the Mayds of Honour at Court have the Mrs Jennings, one of the Duchesses mayds, the other day dressed herself like an orange wench…

From Beauties of the Court of Charles II” by Mrs. Jameson

The cause of the ‘shameful’ outing of Miss Jennings and a Miss Price was that they had been duped into the first of the many ongoing and outlandish frolics of a now 18 year old Lord Rochester, who was parading as a German doctor and astrologer. After Rochester found himself “being forbidden at court, he undertook to reveal the past and future to all whom curiosity or credulity might lead to his enchanted den, somewhere near the precincts of Drury-lane. Rochester’s wit and self-possession, and his knowledge of all of the private scandal of the town gave him and advantage over all the conjurors before or since. The fame of his extraordinary revelations reached the court, and spread astonishment and consternation throughout the whole tribe of abigails; even the Maid of Honour began to flutter with wonder, curiosity, and apprehension. “

The ladies were overcome by their curiosity and snuck out on the Duchess of York. They disguised themselves with hopes of being unnoticed on their way. While dressed as wenches they were approached by Sydney and Killigrew whose lecherous manners frighten them. Brounker, one of the DOY’s equerries recognized the ladies and, pretending that he thought them to be orange sellers, addressed them with so much freedom and insolence that it caused an embarrassing squabble to start and a crowd to gather. According to Mrs. Jameson, Broucker then stepped out and left the ladies to fend for themselves.

Grammont, in his Memoirs seemed to believe that Brounker knew their destination, toyed with them and then left them to go to see Rochester where he was sure that they would be ‘used sexually’ by him. His version is that
“Brounker, on the other hand, would not have taken a thousand guineas for this rencounter; he blessed the Lord that he had not alarmed them to such a degree as to frustrate their intention; for he made no doubt but Miss Price had managed some intrigue for Miss Jennings: he therefore immediately concluded, that at present it would be improper to make known his discovery, which would have answered no other end but to have overwhelmed them with confusion.
Upon this account, although Jermyn [who Miss Jennings was hoping to marry] was one of his best friends, he felt a secret joy in not having prevented his being made a cuckold, before his marriage; and the apprehension he was in of preserving him from that accident, was his sole reason for quitting them with the precautions afore-mentioned. “

Grammont tells the story in detail in Chapter X. Most of that chapter is about Rochester, if you care to read it all, or you can scroll down and find the highlighted “famous German doctor” and read from there
http://www.pseudopodium.org/repre…

Rochester’s famous speech as Dr. Bendo is here
http://www.pseudopodium.org/repre…

CGS on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

looseness of the times??? A fox in the hen house??"...my Lady Sandwich (good lady) talking of innocent discourse of good housewifery and husbands for her daughters, and the luxury and looseness of the times and other such things till past 10 o’clock at night,..."

Paul Chapin on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

"the luxury and looseness of the times"

Here "luxury" means 'lasciviousness, lust', a meaning it has since lost.
OED:
†1. Lasciviousness, lust; pl. lusts. Obs.
1340 Ayenb. 157 Þe dyeuel+assayletþ+þane sanguinien mid ioliuete and mid luxurie. c1386 Chaucer Man of Law's T. 827 O foule lust of luxurie. c1450 Knt. de la Tour (1868) 58 Leude touchinge and handelyng+makithe+folke falle into orible synne of luxurie. 1577 tr. Bullinger's Decades (1592) 234 Therewithal he doth inclusiuely vnderstand all kindes of lust and luxurie. 1602 Marston Antonio's Rev. ii. iii. Wks. 1856 I. 96 Mellida is light, And stained with adulterous luxury. 1661 Lovell Hist. Anim. & Min. 89 The ashes of the claws with that of the skinne, being applied helpe luxury in man or woman. 1728 Morgan Algiers I. v. 163 To say nothing of the Luxury and Debaucheries which reigned in the Camps, which he describes as the filthiest of Brothels. 1812 Crabbe Tales, Squire & Priest (1814) II. 91 Grov'lling in the sty+of shameless luxury.

Paul Chapin on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

"the abuse now practised in tickets"

Here I think "tickets" has the following meaning from OED:
6. a. A pay-warrant; esp. a discharge warrant in which the amount of pay due to a soldier or sailor is certified. Also, any certificate of discharge from service, prison, etc.; freq. in phr. to work one's ticket, to obtain (by scheming) one's discharge.
1596 Spenser State Irel. Wks. (Globe) 657/2 There should be a pay-master appoynted, of speciall trust, which should paye everye man according to his captaynes tickett, and the accompte of the clarke of his bande. 1665 Pepys Diary 5 Dec., Mr. Stevens, who is+paying of seamen of their tickets at Deptford. 1836 Marryat Midsh. Easy xl, Gascoigne, having received his discharge-ticket, went on board of the Rebiera. 1849 Macaulay Hist. Eng. iii. I. 299 The sailors were paid with so little punctuality that they were glad to find some usurer who would purchase their tickets at forty per cent discount. 1858 Simmonds Dict. Trade, Ticket, Seaman's, a register ticket given to seamen from the General Register and Record office of Seamen. 1869 Temple Bar XXV. 217 ‘Coiners’+as a rule returned to their profession as soon as they got their ‘ticket’. Prison is+a great punishment to such men. 1899 H. Wyndham Queen's Service xxxiii. 231 It is a comparatively easy matter for a discontented man to ‘work his ticket’. 1952 M. Allingham Tiger in Smoke iv. 77 He+attempted to work his ticket to one of these new-style open prisons. 1970 W. Smith Gold Mine xxiv. 56 My boss boy has worked his ticket.+ Can you see that I get a good man to replace him?

CGS on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

To day it be clear your "Peers" will be free holders,
nun of yer common volk to serve on the jurie.
so says the H of C. ( see above._)
Juries:
".., and none but Freeholders to be admitted to serve as Jurors;..."

no orange hawkers apply.

CGS on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

He duthe soond like me:"..writ me word from..'

Michael Robinson on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

"What mad freaks the Mayds of Honour at Court have ..."

Thanks Jeannine: Grammont's account is hilarious!

Mary on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

"a mighty pain in my forefinger...."

Mrs. Bagwell is, at the very least, playing hard-to-get. Sam's comments about the general misconduct at Court definitely fall into the 'mote and beam' category.

andy on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

a strain that it received last night) in struggling ‘avec la femme

looks like Sam was violent with Mrs B., which clarifies how consensual the relationship really is.

Robert Gertz on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

"...my wife being busy in going with her woman to a hot-house to bathe herself, after her long being within doors in the dirt, so that she now pretends to a resolution of being hereafter very clean. How long it will hold I can guess." Hmmn...Never a complaint about her physical cleanliness before. I can't believe Sam himself is exactly a daily bather. Could be that some of his complaints and arguments with Bess have been regarding house cleanliness and maintenance. Curious that Sam doesn't go more for some of the new fangled washtubs and such...At least he makes no mention of them. I was just at a 17th century reconstructed American mansion which featured a water closet and a bathtub with a filled tank to allow hot, (more or less running) water. I would think one trip to a bath or "hot" house would sell our fastidious boy on the joys of daily bathing and he'd long ago have purchased the most modern system he could but perhaps concerns about health hinder him in this.

Robert Gertz on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

Hmmn...Without the good ole usual odor Sam's grown attached to will Bess be more or less attractive to him? Guess we'll see if he spends more hours in bed in the morning, "laying long with pleasure...".
***
No mention of the dangerously pretty new maid as yet...Perhaps Bess was joking. And not crazy enough to tempt fate.

***
Mercer continues to hang tough...How does she do it? Must be an extremely pleasant young lady...And wise enough to keep away from Sam as much as possible.

Todd Bernhardt on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

"looks like Sam was violent with Mrs B., which clarifies how consensual the relationship really is."

Yeah, not so "Oh Sir Jasper" after all, I guess.

(Yet she was waiting to be his Valentine! Go figure. Perhaps "struggling" has a different connotation here?)

CGS on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

Officially w/c's did not became availble to the GP until 1758, there be some exceptions.
Bathing and wash houses be down the street before they progressed to down the hallway of the 20th century to the amazement of visitors to the great city.
W/C OED:
A closet or small room fitted up to serve as a privy, and furnished with water-supply to flush the pan and discharge its contents into a waste-pipe below. Often abbreviated W.C.
Sometimes applied to the pan and the connected apparatus for flushing and discharge; also, loosely, to any kind of privy.
1755 Connoisseur No. 100 It was always my office..to attend him in the water-closet when he took a cathartic. 1760 H. WALPOLE Let. to G. Montagu 25 Oct., A little after seven, he went into the water-closet.
wiki:
1738: A valve-type flush toilet was invented by J. F. Brondel.

# circa 15th century BC: Flush toilets used in the Minoan city of Akrotiri.
# 1st to 5th centuries AD: Flush toilets were used throughout the Roman Empire. Some examples include those at Vindolanda on Hadrian's Wall in Britain. With the fall of the Roman Empire, the technology was lost in the West

Even in the 20 th century some people of the unwashed class thought that the bath was for storing coal. As in-house bath were for the posh , as they would have to go to the end of the street for a rinse off.

The bombing of WWII advanced the cause of godliness and cleanliness and the abandoning fruitful BO.

The shower was not always part of the standard of living.

Michael Robinson on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

“looks like Sam was violent with Mrs B., which clarifies how consensual the relationship really is.”
... "Yet she was waiting to be his Valentine! Go figure."

On the 14th. she appears to be flirting:-
"...and, opening the door, there was Bagwell’s wife, with whom I talked afterwards, and she had the confidence to say she came with a hope to be time enough to be my Valentine, and so indeed she did, but my oath preserved me from loosing any time with her,
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Yet SP is having nothing to do with it and considers any response in some sense 'oath breaking.' But on the 20th. he writes a letter and sets about collecting
what he appears to sees a 'trade' of favors. Do direct bargains trump oaths for S.P.?

Could Mrs. B have been hurt about being rejected on the 14th., and sees the 20th. as a question of getting even in an emotional sense (one rejection meriting another), rather than the matter of fact direct bargain of SP's perception, hence her resistance?

And where is Mr. B, is he at sea now? On the first occasion he had exited after supper at a convenient moment ... curiouser and curiouser.

CGS on 22 Feb 2008  •  Link

'Tis wot the the brain be for, to justify ones actions that be contrary to other good actions.
The seven deadly sins must be justified when it comes to ones pleasures.
We all be epicureans, just that some be more so than others.

Res Ipsa on 7 Mar 2008  •  Link

I think Bagwell is doing what she needs to do for her family, and that (for the times) her behavior is consistent. She's trying to get her hubby a better position, no matter how much she loathes the process. Its a matter of necessity. However, I wonder if Sam had treated her with some respect on the 14th, would he have had to resort to rape yesterday? Or, would she have acquiesed, even though not necessarily totally willing?

Terry Foreman on 19 Jan 2018  •  Link

"my wife being busy in going with her woman to a hot-house to bathe herself"

This was a public steam-bath establishment, used for hygienic and medicinal purposes, especially (perhaps exclusively) by women. (L&M note)

Terry Foreman on 19 Jan 2018  •  Link

"with Mr. Wayth...for discourse with him about Hamaccos"

On 1 March Waith put in a tender for the supply of hammocks at 1s. 2d. to 2s. 4d. each: CSPD 1665-6, p. 130. (L&M note)

Terry Foreman on 19 Jan 2018  •  Link

"the abuse now practised in tickets"

Cases of abuse of pay-tickets ('double-tickets', 'dead-pays', etc.) abound in the diary; e.g. https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/… Officers,seamen and clerks of the Ticket Office were all capable of malpractice. (L&M note)

Terry Foreman on 19 Jan 2018  •  Link

"Also of the great profit Mr. Fen makes of his place"

John Fenn, Paymaster to the Navy Treasurer. For his profit, see https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/… and https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…

Terry Foreman on 19 Jan 2018  •  Link

"What mad freaks the Mayds of Honour at Court have: that Mrs. Jenings, one of the Duchesses mayds, the other day dressed herself like an orange wench, and went up and down and cried oranges; till falling down, or by such accident, though in the evening, her fine shoes were discerned, and she put to a great deale of shame"

The incident appears to be referred to Grammont, pp. 259+. Frances Jennings (elder sister of Sarah, later Duchess of Marlborough) married in this year George Hamilton, brother of Anthony Hamilton, author of the memoirs of Grammont. (L&M note)

San Diego Sarah on 19 Jan 2018  •  Link

Terry speculates about a Catholic intrigue leading to Secretary Bennet telling Ormonde that Col. Richard Talbot is to be released.

Talbot was made a gentleman of James, Duke of York's bedchamber at the Restoration; that didn't last long because he was imprisoned for challenging James Butler, Duke of Ormonde, to a duel in 1661. So Talbot's been locked up for about 4 years, and this was probably a courtesy note so Butler can keep an eye out for him in case Talbot tries anything.

Terry may knows more about this, but why would Charles II play into the hand of the Irish rebels? Talbot was a spokesman of the Irish Roman Catholics and made trouble for decades.

Terry Foreman on 19 Jan 2018  •  Link

"Terry speculates about a Catholic intrigue leading to Secretary Bennet telling Ormonde that Col. Richard Talbot is to be released."

Sarah, that was not speculation. I was responding to an extant letter dated this date in 1665 in the online electronic catalogue of the Carte Papers. "The Carte papers in the Bodleian Library comprise vast collections of original papers from various sources which Thomas Carte amassed in preparation for the publication of his biography of James Butler, 1st Duke of Ormond, in 1735-6. There are 276 large volumes, comprising Ormond, Fitzwilliam, Chichester, Sandwich, Wharton, Huntingdon and Nairn papers largely relating to the history of Britain and Ireland in the period 1560-1715.

"The largest group, forming the core of the Carte MSS., is the 111 volumes of the papers of James Butler, 12th Earl and 1st Duke of Ormond (1610-88). Ormond was created Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in 1644, having commanded the army there since 1640. Ormond led the war effort against the Confederate Catholics who had set up in opposition to the Dublin government in 1642 and effectively ruled much of Ireland. Subsequently Ormond conducted a series of peace negotiations with the Confederates, as Charles I sought Irish support against his English Parliament. Ormond went into exile in 1650 following military defeat by Cromwell's invading forces. After the Restoration in 1660, Ormond was a leading minister to Charles II, and was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland twice more before his death in 1688.

"The Ormond papers among the Carte MSS. are the major source for the Civil War and Restoration era in Irish history. In effect, they form the archive of the royal administration there, but their significance goes far beyond this...." http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/s…

San Diego Sarah on 21 Jan 2018  •  Link

"I dined with Sir W. Batten and my Lady, they being now a’days very fond of me."

Yet on 7 Feb. 1665: "I am at a loss," writes Pepys, "whether it will be better for me to have him die, because he is a bad man, or live, for fear a worse should come."

What a difference two weeks can make. Pepys must have done something. There are so many stories missing from the diary.

San Diego Sarah on 21 Jan 2018  •  Link

"Lady Castlemayne will in merriment say that her daughter (not above a year old or two) ..."

This is linked to Charlotte Fitzroy Palmer, who was the second daughter of Barbara Villiers Palmer, Countess of Castlemaine, and was born 5 September 1664 making her 5 months old.

However, Charles II and Barbara's first daughter is also alive and well, and would be going on four:

Anne Palmer Fitzroy (later Anne Lennart, Countess of Sussex) (25 February 1661 – 16 May 1721 or 1722) -- for more information, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann…...

Personally, if I were the mother, I'd be boasting about how precocious my 4 year old was, not the 6 month old.

San Diego Sarah on 22 Jan 2018  •  Link

I was surprised there were no annotations about Elizabeth's hot-house visit. Where it was ... ladies only on Tuesdays ... Rochester lurking behind the curtains ... whatever. So I went hunting and discovered that:

Roman-style public baths were introduced by returning crusaders in the 11th and 12th centuries, who had enjoyed warm baths in the Middle East. Baths came and went over the centuries, only to be closed by Henry VIII because of prostitution. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pub…

Christianity turns out to be the only global religion with no laws about hygiene. In the early years of the church, the holier you were, the dirtier you were. Cleanliness was a luxury, because cleanliness was comfortable and attractive. The holier the monk, hermit and saint, the less they wash. The smellier you were, the closer to God people perceived you to be.

When the Black Death arrived in the 14th century, the king of France asked the medical faculty at the Sorbonne, "What is causing this hideous plague that is killing one out of every three Europeans, and what can we do to prevent it?" And the doctor opined that the people most at risk for catching the plague had opened their pores in hot bath water, making them more susceptible.

So in France, England and most European countries for about 500 years, people believed it was dangerous to bathe.

In the 17th century the cuffs and collar of a shirt were thought to be wicks that drew out dirt. People believed it safer to change their linen shirt than to bathe. They thought the flax in the linen exerted a magnetic attraction to sweat and drew it out of the body.

In the Middle Ages, St. Bernard said, "We all stink. No one smells." so they must have had tolerance for body odor. Think about smoking. I never smelled it as a child when everyone smoked, but now I can smell the traces of nicotine in someone's hair or on a hotel pillow.

The 17th century was arguably the dirtiest in Western history. People wore perfume so they couldn't smell their neighbors. One story goes that Madame de Montespan (mistress of Louis XIV) doused herself in perfume so she couldn't smell Louis' halitosis. But he hated perfume because it gave him headaches. One day they had a big fight about it in his coach, in front of Queen Marie Thérèse . SEE https://www.salon.com/2007/11/30/…

On 4 April 1662 the House of Commons voted against erecting and using of public and artificial Baths and Bath-stoves

However, around 1679 a public bath called The Duke of York’s Bagnio or the Royal Bagnio was provided by the Duke of York in Roman Bath Street, London. Medals or tokens, bearing the figure of a man for men’s baths and a women for women’s baths, with respective days of admission, were issued. This is a long and interesting account ... SEE http://www.bathsandwashhouses.co.…

I hope people have more to add to this.

San Diego Sarah on 22 Jan 2018  •  Link

Thanks, Terry, for that wonderful info about the Carte MSS. It was on my To Do List to find out about them, and I'm sure the gang in years to come will also be interested.
&&&

"Terry speculates about a Catholic intrigue leading to Secretary Bennet telling Ormonde that Col. Richard Talbot is to be released."

"Sarah, that was not speculation. I was responding to an extant letter dated this date in 1665 in the online electronic catalogue of the Carte Papers."

Terry, I read the letter you posted before I wrote my annotation. Nowhere in it do I see anything justifying what I think is your editorial headline of "Catholic Intrigue". Now if that's actually what the Carte MMS says, that's different. Back in 2008 you and The Salty One often made up playful headlines.

True, there were lots of Irish Catholic Intrigues in 1665 and later. Talbot's bio leads me to believe he was involved in many of them.

Maybe you are implying Secretary Bennet was a closet Catholic (good friend of a known Roman Catholic, the Earl of Bristol) and therefore suspect of bribery? ... but I see "Secretary of State Sir Henry Bennet, Baron Arlington married 16 Apr. 1666, Isabella, da. of Lodewyk van Nassau, Lord of Beverweerd, 1 da.

"Sir Henry Bennet, Baron Arlington is probably the only secretary of state to have married an enemy alien in the middle of a hard-fought war; but his choice was politically sound, for she was not only an impeccable Protestant but sister-in-law to Thomas Butler, through whom Arlington formed an invaluable reinsurance with the Church party."
http://www.historyofparliamentonl…

We can agree James Butler, Duke of Ormonde was definitely not an Irish conspirator. So a conspiracy between Ormonde and Bennet is highly unlikely. Nor would Ormonde's duties be involved in Talbot's release. But since Talbot was imprisoned for challenging Ormonde to a duel in 1661, Ormonde would have wanted to know the man was on the loose again.

So I repeat my question, "Terry may know more about this, but why would Charles II play into the hand of the Irish rebels?"

Logically no one here is an Irish conspirator.

I suspect it was impossible for Charles to keep Talbot locked up without trial any longer. Maybe keeping him locked up was making things worse in Ireland?

One conspiracy theory I can come up with is that Charles was paid off by Louis XIV who wanted to ferment cheap rebellion in Ireland, and the money was delivered by the good old Irish Earl of Castlemaine. You think????? 8-)

Your knowledge of 17th century history is far superior to mine, and may have prompted a "Spoiler Alert" headline -- I dunno. But I still don't think the letter as posted calls for this conclusion.

Terry Foreman on 22 Jan 2018  •  Link

Bennett's bio says this about our vexations, Sarah: concerning his religion...his attitude was similar to that of Charles II himself. He was credited with having inclined the king towards Romanism. Before the Restoration he had attended Catholic mass with the king abroad, and in a petition to George Digby, 2nd Earl of Bristol had urged Charles to declare publicly his conversion in order to obtain the long-expected succour from foreign powers. But his religion sat lightly upon him as it did upon his master, and it was often convenient to disguise it. Like the king he continued to profess and practise Protestantism, he spent large sums in restoring the church at Euston. Unlike Clifford, he took the Test in 1673 and remained in office, successfully concealing his faith until he "declared himself an adherent of Roman Catholicism" on his deathbed. https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

San Diego Sarah on 22 Jan 2018  •  Link

"The King seems to purpose, with respect to Colonel [Richard] Talbot, to order him to be taken out of the Tower, but not to see him or to permit his return to Court."

So you are suggesting there could have been a "Catholic Intrigue" between Charles II and Secretary Bennet to free Talbot?

Why alert Ormonde to the fact ... except to say the Irish fanatic who wanted to kill you 3 years ago is about to be released from the Tower? I still see this as a courtesy note and will need more evidence to suspect Charles and Bennet of working with the Irish rebels. I like my Louis XIV theory better. 8-)

San Diego Sarah on 22 Jan 2018  •  Link

"What mad freaks the Maids of Honour at Court have the Mrs Jennings, one of the Duchess' maids, the other day dressed herself like an orange wench"

From "Beauties of the Court of Charles II” by Mrs. Jameson:
'The cause of the ‘shameful’ outing of Miss Jennings and a Miss Price was that they had been duped into the first of the many ongoing and outlandish frolics of a now 18-year-old Lord Rochester, who was parading as a German doctor and astrologer.'

Frances Jennings, sister of the future Duchess of Marlborough, inspired Anthony Hamilton to write, “Her face reminded me of the dawn, or of some Goddess of the Spring.” On one occasion she and her fellow maid of honour, Goditha Price, disguised as orange girls, sold fruit at the theatre. They went unrecognised by the male courtiers who accosted them, or their mistress the Duchess of York. http://englishhistoryauthors.blog…...

Goditha Price -- Maid of Honor to the Duchess of York -- daughter of Sir Herbert Price MP, Master of the King's Household. L&M say she was called "fat price" in *Memoirs of Count Gramont* By Anthony, Count Hamilton http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo… Born in Llanguick, Glamorganshire, Wales on 16 Jan 1637. So she was aged 28 in 1665.

James, Duke of York was also known to have had an affair with Goditha Price, daughter of Herbert Price, 1st Baronet of the Priory. http://listverse.com/2011/04/21/t…...

Clarendon described Herbert Price, 1st Bart. as much trusted by Henry Wilmot, 1st Earl of Rochester, so he may have been the way John Wilmot, 2nd Duke of Rochester met the two women. ... Herbert Price, 1st Bart MP became interested in the relief of poor prisoners, serving on a committee in 1665; but his position at Court was strengthened by the success of his daughter, ‘fat Price’, whose ample charms and compliant disposition made her a conquest of the Duke of York. http://www.historyofparliamentonl…...

The Windsor Beauties: Ladies of the Court of Charles II -- THE first four Maids of Honour of the Duchess of York MAIDS OF HONOUR GODITHA PRICE; HENRIETTA MARIA BLAGGE; MISS HOBART; AND ELIZABETH BAGOT, COUNTESS OF FALMOUTH, AFTERWARDS COUNTESS OF DORSET 1643 - 1684 https://books.google.com/books?is… BY Lewis Melville

Interesting that Pepys tells us gossip about Charles II, but nothing about his boss' side affairs.

Sounds like John Evelyn may be dealing more with father Price later in the year, taking care of the prisoners of war.

San Diego Sarah on 22 Jan 2018  •  Link

Anyone know what Rochester did between Christmas Day 1664 (when he delivered Minette's letter to Charles II) and today, February 21, when he has been kicked out of Court and has had time to set himself up playing pranks on the (quite elderly for the times) daughters of his father's friends?

I have to get a Rochester biography. Any recommendations?

And this story reads two ways now. 1) Pepys says Rochester set up the two girls to make a spectacle of themselves. But 2) Mrs. Jameson says the women wanted to meet him and thought this was a good way to do so. Grammont seems to be more in the Pepys camp.

Grammont tells the story in detail in Chapter X. Most of the chapter is about Rochester, if you care to read it all, or you can scroll down and find the highlighted “famous German doctor” and read from there.

San Diego Sarah on 25 Jan 2018  •  Link

On public baths in the 1660's and also Rochester -- I certainly hope Elizabeth wasn't going here:

London libertines of both sexes made their way to the baths in Leather Lane, Holborn, to "take the cure" for venereal disease. (The cure largely consisted of alternately sweating in a tub and taking mercury over an extended period of time. A letter of Henry Savile's to Rochester, complains of "that whole stock of mercury that has gone down my throat in seven months.")

For more information, see:
http://www.okima.com/tour/holborn…

Terry Foreman on 26 Jan 2018  •  Link

"Why alert Ormonde to the fact ... except to say the Irish fanatic who wanted to kill you 3 years ago is about to be released from the Tower? I still see this as a courtesy note and will need more evidence to suspect Charles and Bennet of working with the Irish rebels. I like my Louis XIV theory better. 8-)"

Sarah, you are surely barking up the righter tree. You have persisted and I abandon my earlier "Catholic conspiracy" suggestion.

San Diego Sarah on 18 Feb 2018  •  Link

This is my first encounter with Grammont and his Memoirs. I understand he dictated them about 20 years after leaving London, and loved to tell a good story. Consequently, memories became kaleidoscoped, and unrelated incidents were linked, mixing facts so stories have the ring of truth without in the end being factual. It all makes for a best seller.

In this case, there may well have been a fortune-teller who had the Court abuzz, and Rochester did resort to pranks like this years later, but this fortune-teller was not Rochester.

At Christmas 1664 John Wilmot, 2nd Duke of Rochester was returning from his Grand Tour to France and Italy with Dr. Andrew Balfour. He was 16 years old, and his demeanor at this period is said to have been remarkable for its modesty. According to Susan Cooper-Bridgewater’s book, *OF INK, WIT AND INTRIGUE, Lord Rochester, in Chains of Quicksilver* he not only brought a letter from Minette to Charles II, but also a valuable miniature portrait of her which he cherished.

They spent the next week in London, staying at Whitehall (possibly invited by aunt Barbara Villiers Palmer the Lady Castlemaine, or uncle Sir Allen Apsley, or distant relative Chancellor Edward Hyde?), and -- to the disgust of Balfour -- Rochester was introduced to The Merry Gang, by cousin George Villiers, 2nd Duke of Buckingham, who invited Rochester to tag along with Lord Buckhurst, Sir Charles Sedley, Sir George Etherege, and Sir Henry Savile, probably to the theater and drinking, exposing him to the excesses offered in London.

After a week Rochester and Balfour traveled to Rochester’s home, Ditchley Manor, Oxfordshire, to spend a month with his mother, Anne St.John Lee Wilmot, Countess of Rochester.

PLEASE NOTE: as we know from Pepys, the title “cousin” means a relative. George Villiers was old enough to be Rochester’s father. Sir Allen Apsley’s mother was Anne St.John’s aunt, and he was very close to Anne when she was the widow Lee. I’m not sure how Hyde was related, but when he was on the run, Anne St.John Lee Wilmot hid him at Ditchley. Barbara Villiers Palmer’s mother was a St.John sister who married George’s uncle. It’s all in the family.

Susan Cooper-Bridgewater, *OF INK, WIT AND INTRIGUE, Lord Rochester, in Chains of Quicksilver*, 2014, Troubador Publishing, UK, ISBN 978-1783063-079

StanB on 22 Feb 2018  •  Link

Great banter there Terry and Sarah

Tonyel on 22 Feb 2018  •  Link

My Lady tells me how my Lord Castlemayne is coming over from France, and is believed will be made friends with his Lady again.

I love the expression on Castlemaine's face in the link. You can almost hear him saying "Women, eh?" with a shrug of the shoulders.

Louise Hudson on 23 Feb 2018  •  Link

Mary wrote:

a mighty pain in my forefinger...."

“Mrs. Bagwell is, at the very least, playing hard-to-get. Sam's comments about the general misconduct at Court definitely fall into the 'mote and beam' category.”

I wonder if one of his paramours bit it or bent it back. It would have served him right.

Gerald Berg on 23 Feb 2018  •  Link

Spring! Watched Mallard ducks mate yesterday. After much prior nodding between them the act was consummated. It was consensual but there was a struggle. Maybe SP is merely clumsy?

San Diego Sarah on 8 Mar 2018  •  Link

Great mental picture, Gerald. Where was this consensual outside exhibition of Spring?

San Diego Sarah on 8 Mar 2018  •  Link

I've always thought of John Evelyn being of a higher class than Pepys ... but on bathing they agree:

The courtier and diarist, John Evelyn, wrote in 1653 that he was resolved to wash, but only once a year.

… regular changes of underclothes and the liberal application of perfumes and powders in an attempt to mask any unpleasant smells … [even so] social gatherings at the royal palaces resulted in ‘sweating and stinking in abundance. Rather than a disregard for personal hygiene, this unwillingness to bath was partly for health reasons. Doctors and scientists of the day argued that bathing would allow unclean waters and miasmas to enter the body and upset the equilibrium of the natural humors.

On a very practical level, it was also quite a challenge to fill a bath tub in an age when piped water in the home was available only to the privileged few. So instead, cleanliness was achieved by rubbing the body with linen towels, regular changes of underclothes and the liberal application of perfumes and powders in an attempt to mask any unpleasant smells. Unsurprisingly, the result of this cleansing treatment was not always successful.

As the courtier Lord Hervey remarked, even social gatherings at the royal palaces resulted in ‘sweating and stinking in abundance’.

San Diego Sarah on 20 Dec 2021  •  Link

More on the evolution of bathing:

"While manners evolved without going away, in the early Renaissance, increasing urbanization led to increasing water contamination, which in turn led doctors to associate communicable disease with water. Water was seen increasingly as “unhealthy” just at a time when the Reformation frowned at the notion of men and women sharing public baths.
Bath-houses fell into disrepute and increasingly disappeared from the scene ― without being replaced for several hundred years by private baths.
Thus, while the castles of the late 15th century had hot and cold running water, the palaces of the 18th century had no baths at all.
Likewise, while people in the Middle Ages viewed bathing as both hygienic and pleasurable, by the 18th century bathing had been replaced by satchels filled with fat and blood to attract and collect flees and perfume to cover body odors.

"Development is not linear and progress not inevitable."

Ain't that the truth!
https://defendingcrusaderkingdoms…

San Diego Sarah on 13 Nov 2023  •  Link

Of course, it wasn't just the British who had hygiene problems.

In Venice, Giovanni Marinelli published a book "Gli Ornamenti delle Donne" [The Ornaments of Women] in 1562. The chapter quotes below come from the 1574 edition.

His book was sold alongside the first edition of Marinelli’s "Le medicine partenenti alle infirmità delle donne" [Medicines pertinent to the illnesses of women] which was also released in 1574, and, presumably at the same time, in the shop of Giovanni Valgrisio. The shop was fittingly located at the “Sign of the Victory” in Venice.

The title pages of the books display the mark of the expatriate French printer Vincenza Valgrisi who, in 1570, was fined for publishing prohibited books. Giovanni was probably his son and may have realized that specializing in women's publications was safer and less expensive than his father’s specialty.

"Now, if your body will be free of dirt, & clean; wanting to dispose it toward a better and more attractive ornament than that which it has sustained either through nature or through infirmity, before you proceed to anything else, use the following bath.

"Take a handful of sage leaves, & likewise lavender flowers, roses, & a little bit of salt, which you boil in plain water, or common mineral water. Next you wash your whole person, keeping in mind not to get wet after the meal: because it will cause you very great infirmities. But two hours before food, it comforts the nerves, removes the odor of sweat from the whole body, & of each part of it: it consoles the spirits, & makes them better disposed. The which benefits you will similarly get from the following.

San Diego Sarah on 13 Nov 2023  •  Link

PART 2

"Take some rose water, vinegar, & salt, & boil them all together in pure water. Of this you take two glasses, & mixing within [one] twice-milled flour, or semola as you like to say, you rub your whole person. Then wash yourself with the remainder: that you will not feel any residue, that it serves the further use as it were to cleanse your body.

"There are some, for whom the odoriferous bath is very useful, so that in the water, in which they want to bathe, they pour in a small jug of water mixed with four or six drops of lavender oil. After that, if one wishes to have a stronger scent; you will have to add some of these things; they are musk, amber, civet, camphor, aloe wood, sweet benjamin, styrax, myrrh, carnations, roses, the bark, flower & leaves of cedar, lemons, oranges, jasmine flowers, laurel fronds, common olive herbs; also such as rosemary, lavender, mint, pennyroyal, & others like them, which only combine through boiling.

"But, when you have prepared the bath; beware, if your beauty is dear to you; that it is not too hot; because your skin would be burned, so that your body would give birth to ailments, & worries. And, since you will be entered in the vessel prepared for it; if you like, you can remove unwanted hair with the following medications."

To the kitchen!
Every summer my mother used to make rose water; sadly she didn't pass along the recipe.

My thanks to Gilbert Wesley Purdy for this information
https://vgs-pbr-reviews.blogspot.…

San Diego Sarah on 17 Dec 2024  •  Link

While on the subject of smells, in 2024 Amelia Louks of the University of Cambridge, England, earned her PhD. After 3-1/2 years of writing and research, she published "Olfactory Ethics: The Politics of Smell in Modern and Contemporary Prose". It's caused an uproar from people who hadn't read it -- they judged the title as being racist.

I find that she made some observations which apply to the conversatiin above:

"We tend to think that our desire to avoid bad smells is an instinctual, protective mechanism, but evidence suggests that we are taught which smells to find disgusting, since, the disgust response is almost entirely lacking in children under the age of two. The sense of smell, then, is shaped by society and is influenced by the prejudices that pervade it."

So Pepys wouldn't hate the smell of the gong barrels in the basement. But we would.

"Some authors draw on a long history of discrimination based on smell to explore its relevance in contemporary society. For example, during the transatlantic slave trade, Black slaves were said to emit a foul smell, a misconception that contributed to their dehumanisation. ...
"I’ve found that it is hard to counter such ideas that people have about certain smells being associated with particular identities. This might be down to the strong emotional and bodily reactions produced by smell."

This is yet another example about where we must remember not to judge by 21st century standards.

For more information about her dissertation, see
https://theconversation.com/my-re…