Terry Foreman on 5 Apr 2008  •  Link

Hooke Folio Online - Royal Society this day

Apr: 5. a fast.

http://webapps.qmul.ac.uk/cell/Ho…

Terry Foreman on 5 Apr 2008  •  Link

"husband"

husband
O.E. husbonda "male head of a household," probably from O.N. husbondi "master of the house," from hus "house" + bondi "householder, dweller, freeholder, peasant," from buandi, prp. of bua "to dwell" The sense of "peasant farmer" (c.1220) is preserved in husbandry (first attested c.1380 in this sense). Beginning c.1290, replaced O.E. wer as "married man," companion of wif, a sad loss for Eng. poetry. The verb "manage thriftily" is 1440, from the noun in the obsolete sense of "steward" (c.1450). Slang shortening hubby first attested 1688. http://www.etymonline.com/index.p…

tg on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

"home, and Creed lay with me; but, being sleepy, he had no mind to talk about business, which indeed I intended, by inviting him to lie with me, but I would not force it on him, and so to bed, he and I, and to sleep"

Business pillow talk? This is a custom that is familiar to Sam but so foreign to us now. I assume they were in the same bed together and Sam had hopes of arranging business plans with Creed in the intimacy of the boudoir. Nothing untoward of course, but did they snuggle up for warmth or keep to their own side of the bed?

Ralph Berry on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

"..inviting him to lie with me, but I would not force it on him,..."

Was this a custom or something a bit different? If it was a custom why the "but I would not force it on him"? Does one assume they went to bed in their clothes or did they don night shirts? All very intriguing. And where was Beth, no suggestion she was joining in this male bonding exercise?

Families sleeping in the same bed may have been common but was that not an economic and climatic necessity for the less well off? Children in boarding schools and institutions were forced to sleep with several to a bed. Would not Sam's relative affluence mean it was usually just him and Beth together? We did read a little while ago where Beth would not sleep with him until he took a bath so that probably was the norm.

Robert Gertz on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

(eh, come on...We're all thinking it...)

Tomorrow night...

"Oh...."

"Sam'l?"

"Ohhh..."

"Sweetheart? Are you all right?"

"Oh...John..." moan...

Oh, Christ...Bess, gritting teeth.

Should've guessed by now, I suppose.

***
or perhaps...

"Sam'l, aren't you coming to...Oh...my God..."

"Don't go, Bess. Join us."

"Please do." Creed, serpentine tone...

"Eeegh...I'll leave to your...Business...Gentlemen." Door slam.

"What's bothering her?" Creed, putting down squealing cat and knife...

"Eh, women." Sam shrugs. "Where does she think I get my viol strings?"

Robert Gertz on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

"And where was Beth, no suggestion she was joining in this male bonding exercise?"

See, it isn't my fault...

But can't resist one more...

"No!"

"Bess? What is such a grave matter?"

"You want to sleep with John Creed instead of me? Again?"

"Bess. It's simply business."

"I hope he's paying you extra."

"Well...I suppose I'm not quite worth the 500Ls Uncle offered you. But in my best suit...With the new periwig..."

"You're scaring me now, you do know that?"

***

Mary on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

to lie with me.

This does not have to mean that Sam and Creed would lie in the same bed. The verb 'to lie' can also mean 'to stay, to lodge.'

Viz. the famous definition of an ambassador: an honest man sent to lie abroad for his country.

Sam intended to have discussions with Creed until a really late hour, but his guest pleaded weariness. Therefore Sam gave up the attempt and they both went to bed..... possibly in the same chamber, possibly in the same bed but not necessarily so in either case.

language hat on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

Mary is quite right.

JWB on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

Hackney

A/S Hacca's ey =? hook's isle =? hooked-nose's mound in the marsh.

JWB on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

Matt 6:

16 "Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly."

So I think it can be said that the King's public call to fast is ,on its face, un-Christian.

Carl in Boston on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

Mr. Tooker, whom I have brought into the Navy to serve us as a husband to see goods timely shipped off from hence to the Fleete and other places
Samuel Pepys' Grand Design grows apace. Now in addition to accounting and purchasing functions in his office, he has added what we now call a shipping clerk. Oh yes, and all those specialists nearby who design ships and make half hull models and can see a ship through to completion, there's an engineering and design department that reports to Pepys in a loose way. It's all General Business coming together, but it's growing like an amoeba. In the USA, this conglomerate company might well be named Engulf and Devour.

Phil on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

"This day was kept publiquely by the King’s command, as a fast day against the Dutch warr".. Fasting seems to me to be a religious event, generally a penance. Here we have a King invoking a fast. Is the King simply calling for a type of remembrance day or is he calling for some kind of punitive measure on his subjects?

"I betimes with Mr. Tooker, whom I have brought into the Navy to serve us as a husband.." Would this be a new position in the Navy, solely created by Sam, and is Sam now building his own empire?

"Creed lay with me; but, being sleepy, he had no mind to talk about business.." I thought todays CEO's with the support of those they call "entrepreneurs", had covered all the possible places to find new business but I think Sam's Diary should be an entrepreneur's bible when it comes to places to mine for new business. I wonder if Sam knew how to golf?

Australian Susan on 6 Apr 2008  •  Link

Fasting

On a fast day (such as weekdays in Lent and Fridays under the old regime - pre Reformation) one would have eaten fish or pulses (eg pease pudding). Not sure that young chicken (very tasty) would count. Wonder if this was why they took the opportunity to go out of town, so they could have a decent dinner without servant tattle about what had been eaten in the Pepys household. Meanwhile the servants were left to eat pease pudding or herrings or something similar. Playing shuffleboard in a pub does not seem very solemn or fast day like behaviour either!

Sharing beds was very common and did not imply anything odd or sexual in the behaviour and went on for a considerable time. If you read Jane Austen's letters, there are many casual references to this and obviously no untoward actions. And not just because of economic necessity - there are references to Jane's wealthy niece Fanny Austen-Knight sleeping with her governess on occasion (cold? nightmares?)

Michael Robinson on 7 Apr 2008  •  Link

"This day was kept publiquely by the King’s command, as a fast day against the Dutch warr, ..."

By the King. A proclamation for a generall fast throughout the realm of England. "Given at our court at Whitehall the sixth day of March, in the seventeenth year of our reign.".
London : printed by John Bill and Christopher Barker, printers to the Kings most Excellent Majesty, 1664 [i.e. 1665]

2 sheets (versos blank) ; obl. 1⁰. Wing (CD-ROM, 1996), C3300, Steele, I, 3410

Paul Chapin on 7 Apr 2008  •  Link

"the King’s public call to fast is ,on its face, un-Christian"

Indeed, as is the incessant demand for public prayer from the American religious right, for similar scriptural reasons:

Matthew 6:5-6
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Since this passage is from the Sermon on the Mount, just three verses before the beginning of the Lord's Prayer, you would think these people who claim to guide their lives by "What would Jesus do?" might have read it, but apparently not. In case our readers in other countries don't know, in the U.S. these people have been pushing a crusade for decades to have public prayer in schools and at all public events, religious or not.

Sorry to go so OT, but this is a hobby horse of mine.

language hat on 7 Apr 2008  •  Link

"Fasting seems to me to be a religious event, generally a penance. Here we have a King invoking a fast. Is the King simply calling for a type of remembrance day or is he calling for some kind of punitive measure on his subjects?"

The former, but it's not so much "a type of remembrance day" as a day of solemn (re)dedication to their duties as Christians, an attempt to "get right with God" so that he will favor their enterprise. At this time, both in Old and New England, "days of fasting and humiliation" (i.e., humility) were a basic form of public religion, and were certainly not "un-Christian." The practice continued down into the nineteenth century in America; a National Fast was observed on January 4th, 1861.

Please try to keep reactions to twentieth-century politics out of this diary, both because they may bring about unpleasant arguments and because they are completely irrelevant to seventeenth-century thought and life. If you want to learn about this kind of thing, read writers like Sacvan Bercovitch, Theodore Dwight Bozeman, Patrick Collinson, and Stephen Foster ("The Long Argument: English Puritanism and the Shaping of New England Culture, 1570–1700"). Editorializing about the "religious right" is completely out of place.

Michael Robinson on 7 Apr 2008  •  Link

? Spoiler -- "The practice continued down into the nineteenth century in America; ..."

"The unique and quirky New Hampshire holiday called Fast Day no longer legally exists. In 1991 the New Hampshire legislature abolished Fast Day in favor of creating a new holiday, Civil Rights Day (Chapter 206, Laws of 1991). ..." and apparently Massachusetts retained the custom till 1894.

http://www.nh.gov/nhinfo/fast.html

Mary on 7 Apr 2008  •  Link

Hackney.

It might be easier to make a case for a derivation from OE ac (oak) plus ey (island) Acen-ey = island of oaks.
i.e. an area of dryish land amidst the marshes upon which oak trees grew.

OwlCat1212 on 7 Apr 2008  •  Link

While I agree with language hat that this is not the place to lauch yet another instance of religious wars, I think that JWB's comment and most of Paul's response were germain; I would hate to see that kind of dialog squelched as it helps me understand the seventeenth century culture and how it contrasts with ours today. Both are much more valuable--at least to me--than the less than funny psuedo dialogs that also occur in these annotations.

dirk on 8 Apr 2008  •  Link

The fast today:

- in the diary of Ralph Josselin...
"A fast kept for good success in our naval forces, god in mercy grant it."

- John Evelyn's diary...
"Was a day of public humiliation and for successe of this terrible war, begun doubtlesse at secret instigation of the French to weaken the States and Protestant interest. Prodigious preparations on both sides."

language hat on 8 Apr 2008  •  Link

"I think that JWB’s comment and most of Paul’s response were germain; I would hate to see that kind of dialog squelched as it helps me understand the seventeenth century culture and how it contrasts with ours today."

I have no problem with informed discussion of seventeenth-century culture and how it contrasts with ours today; it can indeed be enlightening. But JWB's comment consisted of a Bible quote and the following:

"So I think it can be said that the King’s public call to fast is ,on its face, un-Christian."

That leaves you with less, not more, understanding of the world we're reading about; it is pure editorializing and shows no grasp of Sam's intellectual world (and little of Christianity, if you will permit me a little editorializing of my own). There is a difference between pointing out a contrast that allows us to appreciate Sam's world better and simply venting based on present-day preconceptions, whether it's "Oh dear, Sam's taking bribes!" or "Oh dear, it's just like Pat Robertson!" No, really, it's not.

Australian Susan on 9 Apr 2008  •  Link

Fasting

I mentioned above that typical food for a fast day might include Pease Pudding. Here is a recipe:

"Soak 8oz of yellow split peas in water for a few hours. Drain and rinse them and put them in a pan with just enough water to cover. Simmer till tender, then drain off any remaining water. Fry a chopped onion in butter, add to peas together with a beaten egg, salt and pepper. Put into a floured pudding cloth and boil for an hour."
from The Bean Book by Rose Elliott. (which includes historical recipes).

Linda F on 11 Apr 2008  •  Link

Fasting denotes a diet of bread and water, or of no more than one simple meal daily.
Abstaining refers to foregoing meat.
Strict fasting involves both.
Is this not true everywhere? (I mean now, in 2008.)
Some of today's comments make me wonder.

dirk on 16 Apr 2008  •  Link

A very accurate astronomical observation by Lady Fanshawe in Madrid (the wife of the English Ambassador there):

"Upon the 5th of April here appeared a new blazing star, rising in the east about two o'clock in the morning, rising every day a quarter of an hour later than the former, so that it appeared to our view but about three weeks, because the daylight obscured."

San Diego Sarah on 4 Mar 2018  •  Link

"Sharing beds was very common and did not imply anything odd or sexual in the behavior and went on for a considerable time. ... not just because of economic necessity - there are references to Jane's wealthy niece Fanny Austen-Knight sleeping with her governess on occasion (cold? nightmares?)"

How about fun, companionship, convenience, friendship? Elizabeth has her own room now (her bed hung with curtains made from silk flags if I recall right).

This phobia about sharing beds is a new thing. I grew up in England after WWII, when beds, heat and privacy were in short supply at almost every economic level. In about the 1980's many children's books were removed from library shelves which "the authorities" considered not representing the new multi-cultural face of post-war Great Britain. My cousins tell me about this time authors were asked to start writing about children who live in urban flats, and not houses in the country. Not everyone has a garden these days. But apparently everyone has their own bed.

I also remember being sent to stay with friends who had mumps and measles. Things have changed. I hope for the better. When it comes to the freedom to sleep with your friends and share some gossip and time, I think we have lost something precious.

San Diego Sarah on 4 Mar 2018  •  Link

"... and Creed lay with me; but, being sleepy, he had no mind to talk about business, which indeed I intended, by inviting him to lie with me ..."

Ralph Berry's editing of this quote got the discussion off on the wrong footing, INHO.

Wary of Creed as Pepys is, he does appear to be his best friend and confidant at this time. Pepys has lacked male companionship for the last few months with Creed at sea ... which brings up a new observation: Everyone seems to have rejoined the fleet. Howe's take-over as Sandwich's aide apparently releases Creed from the fight. So what has Sandwich appointed Creed to do in London to support that new home in the Royal Mews? Pepys apparently has ideas, which I trust will become apparent.

And of course, Creed was mightily transported by Charles Berkeley, Earl of "Falmouth’s kind words to him, and saying that he hath a place in his intention for him, which he believes will be considerable. A witty man he is in every respect, but of no good nature, nor a man ordinarily to be dealt with." https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…

San Diego Sarah on 5 Mar 2018  •  Link

"Was a day of public humiliation and for success of this terrible war, begun doubtless at secret instigation of the French to weaken the States and Protestant interest."

So John Evelyn has heard about French shenanigans ... Pepys has told us that Louis XIV rented a fleet, but Holmes and Allin have not encountered it. There is movement at French ports, but Sandwich hasn't met their fleet. The Brits have been suspicious of French intentions for a thousand years, and now religion adds to the paranoia. Instead, the French army is fighting the Turks, and preparing for war with Spain next year. But the rumors persist.

Terry Foreman on 5 Mar 2018  •  Link

" Mr. Tooker, whom I have brought into the Navy to serve us as a husband to see goods timely shipped off from hence to the Fleete and other places"

The warrant appointing John Tooker as a Thames iver agent is datred 9 May: PRO, Adm. 106/3529, f. 25r. (L&M note)

Tonyel on 6 Apr 2018  •  Link

There is a difference between pointing out a contrast that allows us to appreciate Sam's world better and simply venting based on present-day preconceptions, whether it's "Oh dear, Sam's taking bribes!" or "Oh dear, it's just like Pat Robertson!" No, really, it's not.

Actually, it often is. The contrasts between Sam's times and ours are fascinating but the similarities (Hypocrisy, greed, lust, etc) are equally so. Plus ca change... to coin a cliche.

LKvM on 6 Apr 2018  •  Link

germane
not germain (which is a name, Germain, fem. Germaine)

Sasha Clarkson on 14 Apr 2018  •  Link

"husband", as in "to husband one's resources".