Friday 7 April 1665
Up betimes to the Duke of Albemarle about money to be got for the Navy, or else we must shut up shop. Thence to Westminster Hall and up and down, doing not much; then to London, but to prevent Povy’s dining with me (who I see is at the ’Change) I went back again and to Herbert’s at Westminster, there sent for a bit of meat and dined, and then to my Lord Treasurer’s, and there with Sir Philip Warwicke, and thence to White Hall in my Lord Treasurer’s chamber with Sir Philip Warwicke till dark night, about fower hours talking of the business of the Navy Charge, and how Sir G. Carteret do order business, keeping us in ignorance what he do with his money, and also Sir Philip did shew me nakedly the King’s condition for money for the Navy; and he do assure me, unless the King can get some noblemen or rich money-gentlemen to lend him money, or to get the City to do it, it is impossible to find money: we having already, as he says, spent one year’s share of the three-years’ tax, which comes to 2,500,000l.. Being very glad of this day’s discourse in all but that I fear I shall quite lose Sir G. Carteret, who knows that I have been privately here all this day with Sir Ph. Warwicke. However, I will order it so as to give him as little offence as I can. So home to my office, and then to supper and to bed.
24 Annotations
First Reading
cgs • Link
"fower hours talking" written so or scan error?
cgs • Link
'Tis always easier to spend , 'tis hard to find those that will part with their loot, need good laws and enforcement
" he says, spent one year’s share of the three-years’ tax,"
Maybe the Dutch will cough up with monies from the East Indies, nice to use ones imagination.
cgs • Link
"fur" spelling ? again:
from OED
Forms: 1-3 féower, féwer, (2 fure), 2-3 f(o)uwer, 3 feouwer, fowuer, fower, Orm. fowwerr, foo(u)r, fu{ygh}er, fur, south. vor, 3-4 south. vour, 3-7 fowre, foure, (3 fawre, fowr, Orm. fowwre), 4 faur(e, 3- four.
1533 WRIOTHESLEY Chron. (1875) I. 19 A rich canapie of cloath of silver borne over her heade by the fower Lordes of the Portes.
1642 FULLER Holy & Prof. St. V. i. 359 So be it he goeth not out beyond the Foure seas.
Terry Foreman • Link
“fower hours talking”
Scan or transcription error; L&M transcribe "four"
Terry Foreman • Link
"to the Duke of Albemarle about money to be got for the Navy, or else we must shut up shop"
L&M also note that, according to Pepys (*Further Correspondence*), the asking price for hemp was £50 per ton; merchants insisting they be paid what was due before new deliveries.
Jesse • Link
Perhaps "fower" slipped past the transcription/spelling filters, providing evidence that four was pronounced with two syllables?
Robert Gertz • Link
"shut up shop"?!
Geesh, Sam...The war has barely started and the Navy's bankrupt, out of credit, and ready to shut down for lack of funds?
Indeed...Almost a little touch of Albert Speer today...
"Your Grace...In the field of naval armaments and war production, the war is lost."
"Pepys, we haven't even fought a real battle yet."
Meanwhile, in Amsterdam...Downing must bear the bitter fruit....
Howls of glee outside the embassy.
"Oh, poor Englanders. We feel for you...You need some cash for your widdy navy? Bah, ha, ha, ha."
***
Actually, this sounds like a fine anti-war conspiracy plan. Especially the appeal to Charlie's most sensitive spot...The purse.
Brilliant, Sam...Why you closet Quaker peacenik, you.
Robert Gertz • Link
"Well, gentlemen...? What the hell do we do now?" Coventry eyes his fellows of the Naval Office Board.
"England, sir...Bha rumphf...Must never surrender." Minnes, stoutly.
"True. We couldn't even pay for printing the surrender documents." Batten sighs.
"Of course..." Penn ponders. "All of us, all the courtiers, officials, great tradesmen and merchants...All those who've profitted from the Nation's service these years could now step forward. Offer our fortunes...All we have to the Nation."
Silence...All staring at each other...
"Bwharr...Ha, ha, hah!!! Ah, ha, ha, hah, ha!! Hah, ha, ha, ha!!!"
"Oh...My...Hee...Ah...Oh, Hayter...Record a note of appreciation in the minutes to Admiral Sir Will for providing that light moment." Pepys notes.
Pedro • Link
"about fower hours talking of the business"
Here in the Black Country (still politically correct to call it, and I believe much of the dialect is close to Anglo Saxon) the number 4 is pronounced “fower” as is flower without the “l”.
Pedro • Link
For more on the Black Country dialect see below where the dialect dictionary shows fower
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blackcountry…
A little of topic but a little Black Country humour for Aussie Sue…
Aynuk and Ayli were sat on Bondi Beach in Australia when a big sun bronzed Aussie comes by with a surfboard under his arm, Ayli says to Aynuk weers e gooin with that plank, Aynuk says, that ay a plank it's a surfboard, what's it for says Ayli, yo watch says Aynuk. The Aussie jumps on the board and paddles out, he catches a huge wave which knocks him straight off and dumps him and the board back on the beach in a big heap. Ayli says to Aynuk what did yo say that plank was called, it ay a plank says Aynuk it's a surfboard Ayli says, well it doe look very serf to me.
For more see Aynuk and Ayli…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blackcountry…
Jon Marsh • Link
Four was always two syllables (fo-wer) when I was growing up in Lancashire and I assume the spelling reflects the fact that historically it wasn't pronounced identically to 'for'.
dirk • Link
"However, I will order it so as to give him as little offence as I can."
I'm a little confused here. What is Sam goint to order? And I take it the "him" does refer to Carteret?
Phil • Link
"However, I will order it so.." my bent on this is that the "him" is Carteret and Sam is not so much ordering something as saying " I will arrange it so that.."
I think what's happened here is that Sir Philip, the Lord Treasurer, has shown Sam the books, so Sam can objectively see the amount of money the Lord Treasurer has sent to the Navy. Carteret is the Treasurer of the Navy and he would have rec'd the money from Sir Philip, but Carteret was unwilling or maybe embarrased or indignant about showing his Navy books. It's interesting he avoided showing the books in light of the previous diary entry where he was angry over the tickets.
As Carteret is Sam's boss and friend, Sam appears to be saying he will continue his pursuit of the money to determine if the office is to "shut up shop" or not, but he will arrange to do it in such a manner that Carteret takes "little offence" with Sam's continued pursuit.
I wonder if that ticket business could be a much larger money issue than previously thought. It could be the single most important issue bringing the Navy Office to the point of bankrupcy.
JWB • Link
Tickets
Look at it as an ersatz(RG's mention of Speer in mind) bond market. The discount to the face value rising and falling with the course of the war and the financial standing of the government. We, in US, had similar market in government IOU's to veterans upshot of which was the Constitution and Hamilton's redemption at full face value.
CGS • Link
re: Fower: it would be nice to see the diary transcribed as is! without all the editing by the modern ones of the day for a nice observation of how they dothe talk.
I would think it would help those that love to dissect
the words of long ago.
Tickets business is major scandal and will feature in Samuels future.
Terry Foreman • Link
How Samuel Pepys might have spoken
Very interesting dialect info, Pedro and Jon Marsh. Would it have been usual for a Londoner born and bred then schooled at Magdalene College, Cambridge, like SP to have pronounced "4" with two syllables in his time?
Australian Susan • Link
Chaucer was a Londoner, but his Middle English, when recorded on LP by the late Nevill Coghill sounds like country dialect. maybe even several hundred years later, London speech would still sound likethat to our ears.
It has been said that Shakespeare shows evidence of having a Warwickshire accent because of rhyming schemes in the First Folio, but that would have been influenced by actors' performances as well, surely?
Back in the beginning of the diary, when Sam is having renovations done to his Axe Yard house on the cheap, he is worried that the Kentish accents of his under the counter employees might betray them as not being Londoners, so there were obviously easily distinguished differences.
Accents are in the ear of the listener. Sam commenting on regional accents obviously thinks his speech is the correct form. I thought the same when I came here and people said they could not understand my accent ("you sound just like Princess Di!") (and that was not a compliment) and all sorts of assumptions were made about me on hearing my voice by Australians I encountered. Ha! Of course, it was *everyone else* who had the accents, not me!
Jon Marsh • Link
Terry, I spoke to a retired professor of Anglo-Saxon about this. He told me that the Anglo Saxon word was feower and middle English used fower. Chaucer wrote "Went on three feete, and sometime crept on fower".
Second Reading
Ivan • Link
Why does Sam not want to dine with Povy? Perhaps he needs to look at Povy's accounts again and get his thoughts straight. He does dine with him the following day.
San Diego Sarah • Link
Why does Sam not want to dine with Povy?
My guess is that Pepys knew he was in for a long and difficult afternoon, and didn't want to have to excuse himself from a Povy encounter, so no gossip would leak. (I have a feeling there were no eat-and-run meetings with Mr. Povy.)
San Diego Sarah • Link
Warwick’s instincts at the end of February were right:
“Thence back by coach to Sir Philip Warwicke’s; and there he did contract with me a kind of friendship and freedom of communication, wherein he assures me to make me understand the whole business of the Treasurer’s business of the Navy, that I shall know as well as Sir G. Carteret what money he hath; and will needs have me come to him sometimes, or he meet me, to discourse of things tending to the serving the King: and I am mighty proud and happy in becoming so known to such a man. And I hope shall pursue it."
Thank goodness Pepys did pursue it. Povy and Carteret -- who else doesn't know what he's doing? https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Being very glad of this day’s discourse in all but that I fear I shall quite lose Sir G. Carteret, who knows that I have been privately here all this day with Sir Ph. Warwicke. However, I will order it so as to give him as little offence as I can."
Pepys is relieved the Navy Board's dirty secret is now public, and Southampton's problem. Carteret is a friend, and Pepys fears that will end as Carteret will know Pepys has spied on and reported on his business, especially as Carteret knows who Pepys has been meeting with all afternoon. However, Pepys will do his best to explain the circumstances so as to cover for Carteret, and embarrass the old man as little as possible.
Terry Foreman • Link
"it is impossible to find money: we having already, as he says, spent one year’s share of the three-years’ tax, which comes to 2,500,000l."
The Royal Aid yielded c. £60,000 permonth for three years from 25 December 1664. (L&M note)
Third Reading
Thomas M. Fiddler • Link
"Four was always two syllables (fo-wer) when I was growing up in Lancashire and I assume the spelling reflects the fact that historically it wasn't pronounced identically to 'for'."
It is often pronounced that way here in Southern Appalchia to this day thanks to old Scotch-English-Irish roots.
http://129.71.204.160/history/jou…