Sunday 25 June 1665

(Lord’s day). Up, and several people about business come to me by appointment relating to the office. Thence I to my closet about my Tangier papers. At noon dined, and then I abroad by water, it raining hard, thinking to have gone down to Woolwich, but I did not, but back through bridge to White Hall, where, after I had again visited Sir G. Carteret, and received his (and now his Lady’s) full content in my proposal, I went to my Lord Sandwich, and having told him how Sir G. Carteret received it, he did direct me to return to Sir G. Carteret, and give him thanks for his kind reception of this offer, and that he would the next day be willing to enter discourse with him about the business. Which message I did presently do, and so left the business with great joy to both sides. My Lord, I perceive, intends to give 5000l. with her, and expects about 800l. per annum joynture. So by water home and to supper and bed, being weary with long walking at Court, but had a Psalm or two with my boy and Mercer before bed, which pleased me mightily. This night Sir G. Carteret told me with great kindnesse that the order of the Council did run for the making of Hater and Whitfield incapable of any serving the King again, but that he had stopped the entry of it, which he told me with great kindnesse, but the thing troubles me.

After dinner, before I went to White Hall, I went down to Greenwich by water, thinking to have visited Sir J. Lawson, where, when I come, I find that he is dead, and died this morning, at which I was much surprized; and indeed the nation hath a great loss; though I cannot, without dissembling, say that I am sorry for it, for he was a man never kind to me at all.

Being at White Hall, I visited Mr. Coventry, who, among other talk, entered about the great question now in the House about the Duke’s going to sea again; about which the whole House is divided. He did concur with me that, for the Duke’s honour and safety, it were best, after so great a service and victory and danger, not to go again; and, above all, that the life of the Duke cannot but be a security to the Crowne; if he were away, it being more easy to attempt anything upon the King; but how the fleete will be governed without him, the Prince —[Rupert]— being a man of no government and severe in council, that no ordinary man can offer any advice against his; saying truly that it had been better he had gone to Guinny, and that were he away, it were easy to say how matters might be ordered, my Lord Sandwich being a man of temper and judgment as much as any man he ever knew, and that upon good observation he said this, and that his temper must correct the Prince’s. But I perceive he is much troubled what will be the event of the question. And so I left him.

30 Annotations

First Reading

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"had a Psalm or two with my boy and Mercer before bed, which pleased me mightily."

A fine musical end to a wonderful day -- excepting, perhaps, Sir J Lawson's death, and the future status of the governance of the Fleet --

***
I find this an odd entry: the latter half of it a longer-than-usual resumption after "bed" of the narrative of Pepys's own doings and the day's events.

Ding  •  Link

"My Lord, I perceive, intends to give 5000l. with her, and expects about 800l. per annum joynture."
Does anyone know what the aforementioned joynture is?

Terry W  •  Link

Jointure
Wiktionary says "An estate settled on a wife, which she is to enjoy after her husband's death, for her own life at least, in satisfaction of dower."

dirk  •  Link

The Rev. Josselin's diary today: a somewhat confusing entry...

"plague increased to 168. [by my sons Master. god shelter him. the season somewhat] showering. 2063. prisoners dutch at Colchester: god good in the season to me for which I bless his holy name. good in his word and worship. all my 7 children hearing the word on whom be the divine blessing."

CGS  •  Link

jointure [old fangled settlement and beats argument at the divorce?] before the riches of alimony

Louise H  •  Link

The relationship between the 5,000 pounds that Sandwich intends to give with his daughter and the 800 per year he expects for a jointure seems off to me. I don't know about this period of time, but everything I've read from around Jane Austen's day suggests that a jointure would normally be proportional to the annual income that would be produced by the funds the wife brought to the marriage (though more, of course, if she brought very little). Unless the prevailing interest rate is 16% -- not what we've understood, surely -- then Sandwich seems to be asking for a very good deal for her. Or were customs simply different in this time period?

Terry Foreman  •  Link

Jointure - also see Wikipedia's longer article that sketches Sir Edward Coke's view of it, "the most general form being the settlement by deed of an estate to the use of the husband and wife for their lives in joint tenancy (or "jointure") so that the whole would go to the survivor. Although, strictly speaking, a jointure is a joint estate limited to both husband and wife, in common acceptation the word extends also to a sole estate limited to the wife only....Wives (or their relatives on their behalf) often paid her husband a lump sum (known as a portion) or otherwise handed over her property to him, in exchange for a jointure (usually being more than a third) being settled on her for life. This might (in practice) be in the form of a share of the whole property or the right to a particular part of it or an annuity from it." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Join…

Hard to know when and how the >1/3 was set.

Martin  •  Link

Joynture
The mere fact that this is settled in advance the marriage is interesting, indicative of the very real expectation that the husband could be dead from one thing or another in a few years. From the Wikipedia article on dower: "In English law, dower was one third. However, in the early modern period, it was common for a wife to bar her right to dower in advance under a marriage settlement, under which she agreed to take instead a jointure, that is a particular interest in her husband's property, either a particular share, or a life interest in a particular part of the land, or an annuity. This was often part of an arrangement by which she gave up her property to her husband in exchange for her jointure, which would accordingly be greater than a third." In other words, the 800 pounds is the expected income on something in the vicinity of a third of the combined estates of the couple, not just on the 5000 pounds her family kicks in.

CGS  •  Link

Dowry vs Jointure:
the first be the bribe for the pleasure of his or her company.
The second be a contract of partnership each sharing some worldly goods, each doth bring something of value.
OED
jointure, n.
[a. F. jointure:L. junct.}ra, f. junct-, ppl. stem of jungre to join; see -URE.]

1. Joining, junction, conjunction, union. Obs.
c1374 CHAUCER Boeth. II. pr. v. 32 (Camb. MS.) Ioyngture of sowle and body.

2. concr. A joining, a junction, a joint. Now rare.
1382

3. The holding of an estate by two or more persons in joint-tenancy. Obs.
[1533-4 Act 25 Hen. VIII, c. 13 §7 Euerie personne..which..shall haue iuncture in vse or in possession..of or in any manours.]

1574 tr. Littleton's Tenures 57b, He that surviveth shal have onely the whole tenancy after such estate as he hath if ye iointure bee continued.

1601-2 W. FULBECKE 1st Pt. Parall. 30 If lands be giuen to two, and the heirs of one of them, this is a good iointure, & the one hath freehold & the other fee simple, and if hee which hath the fee die, he that hath the frehold shal haue the entierty.

1660 C. BONDE Scut. Reg. 223 If Lands are given to the King and a subject, or if there be two jointenants and the Crown descend to one of them, the Jointure is severed, and they are Tenants in Common.

4. spec. a. orig. The holding of property to the joint use of a husband and wife for life or in tail, as a provision for the latter, in the event of her widowhood. Hence, by extension, b. A sole estate limited to the wife, being ‘a competent livelihood of freehold for the wife of lands and tenements, to take effect upon the death of the husband for the life of the wife at least’ (Coke upon Littleton, 36b).
1451

c. Used as equivalent to dowry: see DOWRY 2.
1494

1615 J. STEPHENS Satyr. Ess. 364 She would make likewise a thousand pound Joyncture of her behaviour only, and Court-carriage.

VS dowry:
2. The money or property the wife brings her husband; the portion given with the wife; tocher, dot; cf. DOWER 2.
c1400

1644 MILTON Judgm. Bucer (1851) 333 That the Husband wrongfully divorcing his Wife, should give back her dowry.

tg  •  Link

Poor Hater may still not be in the clear yet according to today's entry. It's nice to have friends in high places. The whole religion thing in Sam's day is fascinating; you've got the Catholics at one end of the spectrum and the dissenters at the other. As we all know, Sam gets thrown into the Tower for a few months after the diary years for suspected papism because of his allegiance to the Duke. And the dissenters were always being persecuted for being too Protestant and not deferential enough to the Church of England. One of the most dramatic instances culminated in what is now known as the Priestly riots in 1791, as mobs attacked Joseph Priestly and his followers and their homes and properties in Birmingham for 3 days. As a post-Enlightenment, post-modern person, I am constantly amazed and appalled at the influence "religion" has had on the world over the centuries.

JWB  •  Link

"...event of the question..."

-a nice British English phrase.

Bradford  •  Link

Plague? No, Sir John Lawson died of battle wounds. "I cannot, without dissembling, say that I am sorry for it, for he was a man never kind to me at all." Dissemble, Sam, dissemble. Ask not for whom the bell tolls.

A. Hamilton  •  Link

jointure

Given the variable meanings cited, and the lack of any clue at this point as to the specific meaning intended by Lord Sandwich, it is at least possible that he expects Lord Carteret to put up another L5000 for the couple, so that they would have L10000 for their joint use, with the income (at 8 percent) to be Jemimah's should her husband die before her. Given the fact related by Jeannine that the Carterets were much richer than Sandwich, this sum should be easy for Carteret to subscribe.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

"...the great question now in the House about the Duke’s going to sea again; about which the whole House is divided. He did concur with me that, for the Duke’s honour and safety, it were best, after so great a service and victory and danger, not to go again; and, above all, that the life of the Duke cannot but be a security to the Crowne; if he were away, it being more easy to attempt anything upon the King; "

Poor Jamie...All-in-all a gallant commander but damned if he do (fear for the succession, worry about proper chain of command in battle), sure to be damned if he doesn't (coward, fool not to be trusted with a sea command again...etc). Still it must have been quite a moment for the man who had to make a daring escape from Roundhead England at 14 in a dress to lead a command including some men who defeated and killed his father to victory against a common foe. Interesting thing, life.

Nix  •  Link

Jointure --

Jointure is an advance contractual arrangement to protect or quantify a prospective wife's dower rights. At common law, a widow was entitled to one-third of the income from property that her husband owned at the time of his death. This right was called "dower". (Since married women couldn't own property in their own right, this included the property that her family gave him at the time of the marriage -- her "dowry" -- as well as property he owned or inherited.) Jointure was a way of setting specific property aside to assure that it would be there for her if he died, no matter how feckless or improvident he turned out to be. This all seems odd to us in the 21st century, but remember that in Samuel's day the primary recognized form of wealth was agricultural land, and the financial planning institutions that we take for granted, such as banks, life insurance, stock exchanges, didn't yet exist. Dowry was how a family assured that their daughter could find someone who could support her. Jointure was how they assured that, if he died, she (and her children) wouldn't be a burden on her family.

CGS  •  Link

nicely said Nix:
"...quite a moment for the man who had to make a daring escape from Roundhead England at 14 in a dress..."
Method of escape use by many of leading personalities through the ages.

[ they seek him here , there...]

Ding  •  Link

I seem to have started something with my question on Jointure, but thank you one and all. It makes me think of the Swiss custom of "Seperation des biens" which allows the wife (or husband) to keep whatever they bring to the marriage separate from the joint ownership that comes with marriage. Just backwards...

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"Poor Hater may still not be in the clear yet "

Poor Thomas Hayter will NEVER be "in the clear," as you put it, tg, for the Act of Toleration that would make him so will be passed in the year that he probably dies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_…

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"Unless the prevailing interest rate is 16% — not what we’ve understood, surely — then Sandwich seems to be asking for a very good deal for her. "

Concerning the ratio of the portion to the jointure proposed, L&M say "This would accord with the prevailing rates" and cite as evidence what Evelyn's daughter received in 1693, sc. £500 p.a. from a marriage portion of £4000.

Roger  •  Link

'and then I abroad by water, it raining hard,'...

After such a cold winter it would have been good to have an 'average' June(temperature-wise). Incidently, the 14C average temp for June 1665 is almost dead on what we have had in London this June.

Michael Robinson  •  Link

"My Lord, I perceive, intends to give 5000l. with her, ..."

Given what we know of Sandwich's finances, and SP's desperate attempt to reduce the debt owed to him as much as possible before Sandwich sails and risks his life, and more importantly SP's money, where is the 5,000L going to come from; the Crew maternal grandparents perhaps?

CGS  •  Link

"my question on Jointure"...'tis always best to ask,
someone will try to find out.
'Tis always new things to learn , no matter how long in the tooth one be, the problem is the remembering part.

Oh! where dothe the money come from, same place the money-shy always get it, from a promise , I am he with a title there by I'm good for it.
Even the Carlos Rex was good at borrowing the cash from whomever is a bit of a tight wad, and then pays off in land obtained by stealth, like well be known Penn whom was paid off with land west of the Delaware.

Michael Robinson  •  Link

" ... had a Psalm or two with my boy and Mercer before bed, which pleased me mightily."

Perhaps Psalm 35 in the the Sternhold & Hopkins version:

1 Lord, plead my cause against my foes,
confound their force and might,
And take my part against all those
that seek with me to fight.

2 Lay bold upon the spear and shield,
thyself in armor dress;
Stand up with me to fight the field,
and help me from distress

3 Gird on thy sword, and stop the way,
my enemies withstand;
That thou unto my soul may'st say,
I am thy help at hand

4 Confound them with rebuke and blame,
that seek my soul to spill;
Let them turn back and flee with shame,
that think to work me ill

5 Let them disperse and flee abroad,
as wind doth drive the dust;
That so the angel of our God
their might away may thrust

6 Let all their ways be void of light,
and slipp'ry, like to fall;
And send thy angel with thy might
to persecute them all

and 24 more verses similar ...

http://www.cgmusic.com/workshop/o…

Pedro  •  Link

“and indeed the nation hath a great loss; though I cannot, without dissembling, say that I am sorry for it, for he was a man never kind to me at all.”

Lawson was much admired and trusted by his crew, many of whom followed him from ship to ship, and twenty one of his kindred and name lost their lives when the London blew up in the Thames.

Australian Susan  •  Link

Re tg's comments

We have to remember that the Church of England was the State Church and if you were not seen to be attending/supporting this church, then you could be concluded to be against the State, i.e. in a state of Treason. This has got nothing to do with piety, but all to do with your patriotic allegiances. The only analogy i can think of today is perhaps the suspicion in which Muslims are held in some countries - their loyalty to the state in which they live is suspect because they are perceived (usually entirely erroneously) to have true allegiances elsewhere.

The Friends (popularly known as Quakers) were as suspect as Catholics (suspected of putting Pope before State), because they acknowledged no human above another - equality before the Lord, which stirred up all sorts of memories of the dangers of Lollardy from the late medieval period with its catchphrase of "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the the gentleman?".

In the 17th century, there was no separation of Church and State and you could not have a private belief or practice - everyone came to know about it and at certain times be clamorously condemnatory.

And, of course, at certain other times, all the Christians could unite and condemn and persecute the Jews, which they did, usually with sickening violence, throughout the last 2000 years of history.

Second Reading

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"the great question now in the House about the Duke’s going to sea again"

L&M report "the House" in question was the royal household: parliament was not in session.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"But I perceive he is much troubled what will be the event of the question"

The Duke of York was sent to York in late July to secure the north against invasion, and to escape the risks both of the Plague and of further service in the navy. The fleet which went to sea in early July was put under Sandwich and Penn. Rupert held no further command in this year's campaign, and in 1666 Albemarle was made joint-commander with him. (L&M footnote)

Louise Hudson  •  Link

Jointure appears to be a pre nup.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Third Reading

Thomas M. Fiddler  •  Link

In case anyone new (or not) to the diary is confused about Pepy's use of the term 'closet', I might recommend this tome by Danielle Bobker entitled, _The Closet: The Eighteenth-Century Architecture of Intimacy_ from Princeton University Press, ISBN: 9780691198231

Samuel Pepys is directly referenced.

An interview with the author:
https://notchesblog.com/2021/05/1…

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