Wednesday 10 January 1665/66

Up, and by coach to Sir G. Downing, where Mr. Gawden met me by agreement to talke upon the Act. I do find Sir G. Downing to be a mighty talker, more than is true, which I now know to be so, and suspected it before, but for all that I have good grounds to think it will succeed for goods and in time for money too, but not presently. Having done with him, I to my Lord Bruncker’s house in Covent-Garden, and, among other things, it was to acquaint him with my paper of Pursers, and read it to him, and had his good liking of it. Shewed him Mr. Coventry’s sense of it, which he sent me last post much to my satisfaction. Thence to the ’Change, and there hear to our grief how the plague is encreased this week from seventy to eighty-nine. We have also great fear of our Hambrough fleete, of their meeting the Dutch; as also have certain newes, that by storms Sir Jer. Smith’s fleet is scattered, and three of them come without masts back to Plymouth, which is another very exceeding great disappointment, and if the victualling ships are miscarried will tend to the losse of the garrison of Tangier. Thence home, in my way had the opportunity I longed for, of seeing and saluting Mrs. Stokes, my little goldsmith’s wife in Paternoster Row, and there bespoke some thing, a silver chafing-dish for warming plates, and so home to dinner, found my wife busy about making her hangings for her chamber with the upholster. So I to the office and anon to the Duke of Albemarle, by coach at night, taking, for saving time, Sir W. Warren with me, talking of our businesses all the way going and coming, and there got his reference of my pursers’ paper to the Board to consider of it before he reads it, for he will never understand it I am sure. Here I saw Sir W. Coventry’s kind letter to him concerning my paper, and among others of his letters, which I saw all, and that is a strange thing, that whatever is writ to this Duke of Albemarle, all the world may see; for this very night he did give me Mr. Coventry’s letter to read, soon as it come to his hand, before he had read it himself, and bid me take out of it what concerned the Navy, and many things there was in it, which I should not have thought fit for him to have let any body so suddenly see; but, among other things, find him profess himself to the Duke a friend into the inquiring further into the business of Prizes, and advises that it may be publique, for the righting the King, and satisfying the people and getting the blame to be rightly laid where it should be, which strikes very hard upon my Lord Sandwich, and troubles me to read it. Besides, which vexes me more, I heard the damned Duchesse again say to twenty gentlemen publiquely in the room, that she would have Montagu sent once more to sea, before he goes his Embassy, that we may see whether he will make amends for his cowardice, and repeated the answer she did give the other day in my hearing to Sir G. Downing, wishing her Lord had been a coward, for then perhaps he might have been made an Embassador, and not been sent now to sea. But one good thing she said, she cried mightily out against the having of gentlemen Captains with feathers and ribbands, and wished the King would send her husband to sea with the old plain sea Captains, that he served with formerly, that would make their ships swim with blood, though they could not make legs1 as Captains nowadays can.

It grieved me to see how slightly the Duke do every thing in the world, and how the King and every body suffers whatever he will to be done in the Navy, though never so much against reason, as in the business of recalling tickets, which will be done notwithstanding all the arguments against it. So back again to my office, and there to business and so to bed.

31 Annotations

First Reading

Jesse  •  Link

"the damned Duchesse"

Indeed. The strange case of Dk. James and Ms. Hyde.

Wikipedia has "...intelligent and witty. The French Ambassador described her as having 'courage, cleverness, and energy almost worthy of a King's blood.'" While an annotation link has her being "domineering and James II was described as 'in all things but his cod-piece is led by the nose by his wife.'" My vote is for the latter.

Australian Susan  •  Link

"...a silver chafing-dish for warming plates, ..."

We don't demand warmed plates in restaurants any more do we? I remember a great-aunt who would (this was in the days of silver service) put a finger on the plate placed in front of her and send it back to be further heated if she was not satisfied with the temperature. And my mother always warmed plates before we ate. But I never think of doing this now.

I hope Mr Stokes thinks the patronage of Sam is worth whatever he is bothering Mrs Stokes with.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

Sandwich's alleged "cowardice" bandied about at court

Cf. 6 November 1665: "his leaving of 30 ships of the enemy [reportedly off the Gunfleet], when Pen would have gone, and my Lord called him back again: which is most false." http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Todd Bernhardt  •  Link

“the damned Duchesse”

Jesse, I believe Sam is talking about the Duke of Albemarle's wife, not James'. This is not the first time she's talked Sandwich down.

That said, she was right when "she cried mightily out against the having of gentlemen Captains with feathers and ribbands, and wished the King would send her husband to sea with the old plain sea Captains" ... Sam will help implement this later in life.

A reminder to everyone to vote for Pepys and Phil and, well, *us*! Only a few more days left -- get on it!!

http://2008.weblogawards.org/poll…

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"I to my Lord Bruncker’s house...to acquaint him with my paper of Pursers"

Cf. the footnote to 1 January 1666:
"This document is in the British Museum (Harleian MS. 6287), and is entitled, “A Letter from Mr. Pepys, dated at Greenwich, 1 Jan. 1665-6, which he calls his New Year’s Gift to his hon. friend, Sir Wm. Coventry, wherein he lays down a method for securing his Majesty in husbandly execution of the Victualling Part of the Naval Expence.” It consists of nineteen closely written folio pages, and is a remarkable specimen of Pepys’s business habits.—B. There are copies of several letters on the victualling of the navy, written by Pepys in 1666, among the Rawlinson MSS. in the Bodleian." http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

cgs  •  Link

After I had pawned the silver, I still put 'me' dishes in 'ot water before serving 'me' and the trouble an' strife bubble and squeak.

cgs  •  Link

Interesting aside:
from Essex:
Jan. 10. the Q. mother of France died of a cancer in her breast, that King intends great matters, she did not long overlive her brother philip of Spain,

OED:
cancer, n. and adj.
under medical not stars:

1527 L. ANDREW tr. H. Brunschwig Vertuose Bk. Distyllacyon cxx. following sig. Hii./1, The Cancer [Ger. krebs] wasshed with the same and clowtes wet ther in layde ther vpon, cawseth them to hele.

1565 J. HALL tr. Lanfranc Most Excellent & Learned Woorke Chirurg. III. ii. 33 Vnderstande that a Cancer is eyther vlcerate or not.

1579 T. LUPTON Thousand Notable Things X. 289 It heales and cures all Fystulaes, Cancers, Noli me tangere, the Kings Euyll, and euery other eating Sore. ?

1587 A. HUNTON tr. B. Textor Natures of Cancers 57 in J. Guillemeau Worthy Treat. Eyes (new ed.), Of vlcered cancers those onely are cut & seared, whiche are in the vppermost part of the body.

1601 P. HOLLAND tr. Pliny Hist. World II. Gloss., Cancer is a swelling or sore comming of melancholy bloud, about which the veins appeare of a blacke or swert colour, spread in manner of a Creifish clees.

1671 W. SALMON Synopsis Medicinæ I. xlviii. 114 {Kappa}{alpha}{rho}{kappa}{iota}{nu}{omicron}{fsigma}, Cancer is a hard round Tumour blew or blackish having pain and beating.

Paul Chapin  •  Link

To Australian Susan: In the U.S. it's becoming increasingly common for the better restaurants to warm plates before service. It varies somewhat with the cuisine, more likely in French restaurants than Italian, for instance. In most Mexican restaurants the service plates come with a warning that they're too hot to touch. We always warm ours in the toaster oven before serving a meal we've put some extra work into.

Mary  •  Link

Plates are regularly warmed in decent (though not necessarily expensive) restaurants here (UK) and also in this household and those of friends and family. Hot water, a short spell in the oven or electric warming pads come into use, depending on the number of dishes to be warmed.

In domestic circumstances the modern form of the classic chafing dish on the dining table is usually represented by a dish-warmer that is 'powered' by tea-lights.(Small, dumpy candles like old-fashioned night-lights). You can get electric hot-pates for the table, but the flex can be a nuisance. These are more useful on a side-table.

[End of very-nearly-off-topic disquisition].

Michael Robinson  •  Link

Chaffing dishes etc.

The type SP describes must be of an form rare today; I have seen numerous silver examples, from the early/mid C 18th. on, that use spirit burners but have no recollection of ever seeing one that used coals or charcoal, let alone a London example from the third quarter C 17th.

To confirm Paul Chapin, I had dinner in a restaurant in the provincial US on Thursday evening serving 'contemporary American cuisine', the plates were warmed; and in at least four of the houses where I am a regular guest the staff, or help, use 'silver service.' Might these just be examples of vestigial survival?

I do lack CGS humility, however, and when answering my own phone always explain that "it's the third footman's day off."

Australian Susan  •  Link

Last word:

Before we moved here, whenever we went to an Indian or Chinese restaurant in the UK, (i.e. one serving you several dishes at once), we also got the type of dish warmer described by Mary or an electrically heated metal stand, but this never happens here. Northern hemisphere thing? What is certain, however, is that by buying a silver chafing dish Sam is displaying conspicuous consumption! spending that money he worked out he had a few days ago.

I too think it is the Duchess of Albemarle being referred to here.

Also, I think "presently" here means "immediately".

I would love to know what the Duke of Albemarle thought of his wife's plain speaking!

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"I do find Sir G. Downing to be a mighty talker, more than is true, which I now know to be so, and suspected it before,"

When the Diary began, Pepys introduces the merely Mr. Downing was "master of my office," so you'd think what kind of talker would be known , but my guess is that Pepys is now saying he is REALLY privy to the terms of Downing's dealings and can judge this matter for sure. http://www.pepysdiary.com/archive…

JWB  •  Link

1)"...how slightly the Duke do every thing in the world..."

Was it slight to sit in the Cockpit while everyone who could fled?

2)"...he did give me Mr. Coventry’s letter to read, soon as it come to his hand,..."

If history does not repeat, but rhymes as Twain wrote, it's because there are rhymers. This incident surely does rhyme with Chas. II's letter from Cologne to Monk in 1655 which Monk gave Cromwell quickly to read. Let's not forget that the king styled Monk his "political father".

Jesse  •  Link

“the damned Duchesse” of Albemarle

Thanks for the correction! Makes more sense in context and see the entry for last 9 December. Pepys who doesn't damn too often has now "damned" her at least twice. I was thinking York more than Albemarle competing w/Sandwich for naval honors and recognition.

cgs  •  Link

"...It grieved me to see how slightly the Duke do every thing in the world,.."
popular word for lazy in the 1600's is my reading.

or loose in morals?
not small in stature,
1. Superficial; lacking in thoroughness. Obs.
1619 J. DYKE Caveat (1620) 19 If so slighty and easie a performance will discharge it.

1650 BAXTER Saint's R. III. viii. (1654) 156 The neglect or slighty performance of that great duty.

1671 EACHARD Obs. Answ. Cont. Clergy 129 Where any thing is advised or commanded after this slothful and slighty way.
b. Of persons: Negligent, careless. Obs.


1655 W. GURNALL Chr. Compl. Arm. VII. 200/1 Till this be done, thou wilt be but sluggish and slighty in thy endeavours for faith.
1661 NEWCOME Diary (Chetham Soc.) 8, I was slighty in secret prayer this morninge.

2. Slighting, contemptuous; light. Obs
1642 J. BALL Answ. Canne i. 118 In his other writings..he is insolent, censorious, scornfull and slighty.

1674 N. FAIRFAX Bulk & Selv. To Rdr., Should I say I had slighty thoughts of it [etc.].

3. Slight, unimportant, trivial; also, unsubstantial, slender, weak.
1669 W. GURNALL Chr. in Arm. XXIV. §4. 317/2 Thou mayst not think thou goest upon a slighty errand. 1679

slight, n.
1. A very small amount or weight; a small matter, a trifle. Obs.
1549-62
...
2. Display of contemptuous indifference or disregard; supercilious treatment or reception of a person, etc.; small respect for one.
1701
*
2 slight, a. and adv.
2. Display of contemptuous indifference or disregard; supercilious treatment or reception of a person, etc.; small respect for one.
1701 ...
2. Display of contemptuous indifference or disregard; supercilious treatment or reception of a person, etc.; small respect for one.
1701 ....
3. Of light, thin, or poor texture or material; not good, strong, or substantial; rather flimsy or weak.
1393-4 ..

4. Of persons: a. Of little worth or account; mean, low; humble in position. Obs.
..b. Unworthy of confidence or trust. Obs.{em}1
1607 ...

c. Loose in morals. Obs.
1685 Caldwell Papers (Maitl. Cl.) I. 159, I having..been suspicious of her being a slight person, would goe into no room with her.
5. Small in amount, quantity, degree, etc.
1530...
1601 BP. W. BARLOW Serm. Paul's Cross 48 That sleight feares make women shrike.

1663 S. PATRICK Parab. Pilgrim x. (1687) 58 If he knew that he conceived so much joy from such slight appearances and shadows of comfort.

Robert Gertz  •  Link

Curious that anyone would associate Sandwich with cowardice...Corruption one could see...But cowardice seems a bit ridiculous. Given that the Duchess of Albemarle must get her primary info from Georgie, one could suspect that under his calm and unmovable, even phlegmatic facade, Monk harbors some considerable dislike and jealousy of Montagu, his Restoration partner.

Sean Adams  •  Link

Anne Monck reputedly was the power behind George (i.e. Duke of Albermarle). She had opposed Pepys' original appointment back in 1665 - probably had it in for Montague even then.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"the business of recalling tickets, which will be done notwithstanding all the arguments against it."

L&M note that in this, Albemarle was pro and Pepys con the recall of these chits of uncertain value with which seamen had long been paid. Methinks prudence and equity were on the side of Albemarle (Monck), who, as a military man, was concerned about reliable and loyal manpower.

Todd Bernhardt  •  Link

Whilst pragmatism resides on the side of our boy Sam, Terry, who knows how little real money there is to pay any of these tickets...?

And Aussie Sue, I think it less conspicuous consumption on Sam's part, and more a desire to impress his "little goldsmith’s wife"!

cgs  •  Link

"who knows how little real money there is to pay any of these tickets…?"

Then thee had to have bullion, unlike now, a printing press.

See farmer reference for cash available, which Sam went to see and get [the funds for the Tars] which is supported by imported goods coming to the consumers table from the lands afar, whereas Palmer got the Royal mail monies.

Second Reading

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"to Sir G. Downing, where Mr. Gawden met me by agreement to talke upon the Act. I do find Sir G. Downing to be a mighty talker, more than is true, which I now know to be so, and suspected it before, but for all that I have good grounds to think it will succeed for goods and in time for money too, but not presently."

L&M: Cf. Downing's brusque and confident letter to Pepys 9 January, reporting Albemarle's support for the act (the Additional Aid) and a merchant's promise of masts on [ the Exhequer's ] credit -- so that 'Holland shall not outdoe us in point of credite....': PRO, SP 29/144, no. 85.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"by storms Sir Jer. Smith’s fleet is scattered, and three of them come without masts back to Plymouth, which is another very exceeding great disappointment, and if the victualling ships are miscarried will tend to the losse of the garrison of Tangier."

L&M: Smith had sailed from Plymouth for Tangier and the Straits on 19 December 1665. The three ships which returned had no news of the rest of the fleet. Hence Pepys's relief in February at hearing at their safe arrival off Spain: http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"to the Duke of Albemarle, by coach at night, taking, for saving time, Sir W. Warren with me, talking of our businesses all the way going and coming, and there got his reference of my pursers’ paper to the Board to consider of it before he reads it"

L&M: See Albemarle to Navy Board, 10 January (CSPD 1665-6, p. 198), asking to be told of Mr. Pepys's proposals, since no part of navy business needed more regulation than the disorderly conduct of pursers.

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"the inquiring further into the business of Prizes, and advises that it may be publique, for the righting the King, and satisfying the people and getting the blame to be rightly laid where it should be, which strikes very hard upon my Lord Sandwich"

L&M: The enquiry was held privately, by the Prize Commissioners, and resulted in Sandwich's acquittal: http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Terry Foreman  •  Link

"But one good thing she said, she cried mightily out against the having of gentlemen Captains with feathers and ribbands, and wished the King would send her husband to sea with the old plain sea Captains, that he served with formerly, that would make their ships swim with blood, though they could not make legs [to bow, curtsy] as Captains nowadays can."

L&M: Gentlemen captains had been introduced into the navy in the 1630s to command the fighting forces on the board, and because some thought that it was improper to have the King's ships commanded by men of mean birth. But gentlemen usually knew nothing of navigation, and friction easily developed between them and the 'plain sea-Captains' (or 'tarpaulins') trained in the merchant ships. Commissioner Middleton and Sir William Coventry took much the same view as the Duchess: http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
; 29 June 1667. Pepys's clerk Richard Gibson later expressed the commonest objection. Gentlemen captains, he wrote, 'have the honour to bring drinking, gameing, whoring, swearing, and all impiety into the navy.... They bring seamen to covett to act like gentlemen, where gentlemen shou learn to act like seamen': J. Charnock, Marine archit. (1800-3), vol. i. p. lxxxviii. Pepys's own views were substantially the same, although he could be critical of both types and saw the need for both. He insisted above all on 'downright diligence, sobriety, and seamanship' (letter to Capt. Rooth, 24 January 1674, in Cat. , ii. 232): The best discussion is in Ehrman, pp. 139-41. Cf. also Mcaulay, Hist. Engl. (1876 ed.) iii, 21-2; M. Lewis, England's Sea-officers, esp. 105 & other sources.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

"a silver chafing-dish for warming plates,"

Anything you could do to keep the food warm was important. In Pepys' day the kitchen was frequently in another building because of the risk of fire. The maid could put the plates into the chafing dish before the meal, so she had one less thing to carry during the meal. This solved two problems. Plus, of course, that big hunk of silver on the sideboard would impress the guests.

Louise Hudson  •  Link

We might all appreciate warmed plates if we lived in a house that did not have central heating with dishes kept in unheated cupboards, which was the case in England in Pepys’ time. I remember my grandmothers, both of whom cooked meals on enormous coal stoves, which also provided the only heat in the house, placing plates in the oven to warm. This was in Pennsylvania’s coal country where temperatures could drop to well below freezing for weeks on end and the dishes became as cold as ice. I doubt they could ever have imagined something as fancy and expensive as a chafing dish.

San Diego Sarah  •  Link

Meanwhile, in Paris, Queen Mother Anne of Austria dies of breast cancer. This account of her treatment makes me sooooo happy to live in the 21st century.

She was literally tortured by the doctors for the last two years of her life, which she bore with as much dignity and fortitude as any human could. Then she had to die in public.
https://partylike1660.com/the-dea…

Check out this blog ... it has lots of wonderful insights about the French Court in the 17th century, and who was who. I appreciate the dedication of "Aurora" for interpreting for the English-speakers what was going on in 17th century France such an entertaining manner.

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