Monday 5 November 1666

(A holyday). Lay long; then up, and to the office, where vexed to meet with people come from the fleete at the Nore, where so many ships are laid up and few going abroad, and yet Sir Thomas Allen hath sent up some Lieutenants with warrants to presse men for a few ships to go out this winter, while every day thousands appear here, to our great trouble and affright, before our office and the ticket office, and no Captains able to command one-man aboard.

Thence by water to Westminster, and there at the Swan find Sarah is married to a shoemaker yesterday, so I could not see her, but I believe I shall hereafter at good leisure. Thence by coach to my Lady Peterborough, and there spoke with my Lady, who had sent to speak with me. She makes mighty moan of the badness of the times, and her family as to money. My Lord’s passionateness for want thereof, and his want of coming in of rents, and no wages from the Duke of York. No money to be had there for wages nor disbursements, and therefore prays my assistance about his pension. I was moved with her story, which she largely and handsomely told me, and promised I would try what I could do in a few days, and so took leave, being willing to keep her Lord fair with me, both for his respect to my Lord Sandwich and for my owne sake hereafter, when I come to pass my accounts.

Thence to my Lord Crew’s, and there dined, and mightily made of, having not, to my shame, been there in 8 months before. Here my Lord and Sir Thomas Crew, Mr. John, and Dr. Crew, and two strangers. The best family in the world for goodness and sobriety. Here beyond my expectation I met my Lord Hinchingbroke, who is come to towne two days since from Hinchingbroke, and brought his sister and brother Carteret with him, who are at Sir G. Carteret’s. After dinner I and Sir Thomas Crew went aside to discourse of public matters, and do find by him that all the country gentlemen are publickly jealous of the courtiers in the Parliament, and that they do doubt every thing that they propose; and that the true reason why the country gentlemen are for a land-tax and against a general excise, is, because they are fearful that if the latter be granted they shall never get it down again; whereas the land-tax will be but for so much; and when the war ceases, there will be no ground got by the Court to keep it up. He do much cry out upon our accounts, and that all that they have had from the King hath been but estimates both from my Lord Treasurer and us, and from all people else, so that the Parliament is weary of it. He says the House would be very glad to get something against Sir G. Carteret, and will not let their inquiries die till they have got something.

He do, from what he hath heard at the Committee for examining the burning of the City, conclude it as a thing certain that it was done by plots; it being proved by many witnesses that endeavours were made in several places to encrease the fire, and that both in City and country it was bragged by several Papists that upon such a day or in such a time we should find the hottest weather that ever was in England, and words of plainer sense. But my Lord Crew was discoursing at table how the judges have determined in the case whether the landlords or the tenants (who are, in their leases, all of them generally tied to maintain and uphold their houses) shall bear the losse of the fire; and they say that tenants should against all casualties of fire beginning either in their owne or in their neighbour’s; but, where it is done by an enemy, they are not to do it. And this was by an enemy, there having been one convicted and hanged upon this very score. This is an excellent salvo for the tenants, and for which I am glad, because of my father’s house.

After dinner and this discourse I took coach, and at the same time find my Lord Hinchingbroke and Mr. John Crew and the Doctor going out to see the ruins of the City; so I took the Doctor into my hackney coach (and he is a very fine sober gentleman), and so through the City. But, Lord! what pretty and sober observations he made of the City and its desolation; till anon we come to my house, and there I took them upon Tower Hill to shew them what houses were pulled down there since the fire; and then to my house, where I treated them with good wine of several sorts, and they took it mighty respectfully, and a fine company of gentlemen they are; but above all I was glad to see my Lord Hinchingbroke drink no wine at all. Here I got them to appoint Wednesday come se’nnight to dine here at my house, and so we broke up and all took coach again, and I carried the Doctor to Chancery Lane, and thence I to White Hall, where I staid walking up and down till night, and then got almost into the play house, having much mind to go and see the play at Court this night; but fearing how I should get home, because of the bonefires and the lateness of the night to get a coach, I did not stay; but having this evening seen my Lady Jemimah, who is come to towne, and looks very well and fat, and heard how Mr. John Pickering is to be married this week, and to a fortune with 5000l., and seen a rich necklace of pearle and two pendants of dyamonds, which Sir G. Carteret hath presented her with since her coming to towne, I home by coach, but met not one bonefire through the whole town in going round by the wall, which is strange, and speaks the melancholy disposition of the City at present, while never more was said of, and feared of, and done against the Papists than just at this time. Home, and there find my wife and her people at cards, and I to my chamber, and there late, and so to supper and to bed.

35 Annotations

First Reading

Terry Foreman on 5 Nov 2009 • Link

"A holyday"

'Tis the fifth of November http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_…

Paul Chapin on 5 Nov 2009 • Link

"He do ... conclude it as a thing certain that it was done by plots"

The "paranoid style" didn't begin with American politics.

Terry Foreman on 5 Nov 2009 • Link

"But my Lord Crew was discoursing at table how the judges have determined in the case whether the landlords or the tenants (who are, in their leases, all of them generally tied to maintain and uphold their houses) shall bear the losse of the fire;...but, where it is done by an enemy, they are not to do it. And this was by an enemy, there having been one convicted and hanged upon this very score. This is an excellent salvo for the tenants, and for which I am glad, because of my father’s house."

Remove liability for it by regarding the Great Fire as an act of war.

And the innocent hanged for an accident in the King's bakery in Pudding Lane be damned.

Robert Gertz on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

In fairness to Sam, I think he sincerely believes in the Papal Fire Plot. So far the bloodthirsty mob has not been too such, apparently, though one poor man's death is too many. Interesting that the tenants would have had to pay for the fire's damage...Would that have included the houses themselves as well as their lost possessions? Pretty awful.

Of course one must note there seems no cry for an immediate attack on France or the Vatican...Imagine if Washington or London or another great city burned today and the unholy aftermath on any poor nation wrongly blamed.

Ah, right...

CGS on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

All situations must have solutions, if not fact then fiction will do, none the less, an answer, that will start with a nice speculation, solidifying into a solid answer that can be employed for an act of punishment. A degree d
[listen to any news channel]

cape henry on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

"...while every day thousands appear here, to our great trouble and affright, before our office and the ticket office, and no Captains able to command one-man aboard."

This puts flesh on the reality that Pepys and the Navy Office was faced with every day. The want of money was an immediate and worrisome challenge, not just an abstract problem "out in the fleet" somewhere.

Terry Foreman on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

Ormond to Conway
Written from: Dublin

Date: 5 November 1666

Shelfmark: MS. Carte 49, fol(s). 365

Document type: Copy

Would have been glad had the Bill against Irish Cattle been stopt, in either House, but knows not whether he ought to wish that the King should refuse his assent to it. It is certain that while the war lasts, the ill payment of rents will last, and if the King should not make the Bill a law, it [namely, the fall of rents,] will be imputed to his refusal. Perhaps, it were better they should find that this restriction will not help them, than to leave them liberty to say that it would have done, had the King consented. ... The experiment will certainly undo many of us here. ...

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/s…

GrahamT on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

Remember, remember, the fifth of November,
Gunpowder treason and plot.
I know of no reason
Why the Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.

Treason and plot seem to be on the agenda again in 1666, but with arson replacing the gunpowder. Blamed on the same papish conspirators though.

"Wednesday come se’nnight" = "A week come (next) Wednesday"

Robert Gertz on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

"...and there at the Swan find Sarah is married to a shoemaker yesterday, so I could not see her, but I believe I shall hereafter at good leisure."

Never let a little thing like matrimony stand between Sam and a good time...

***
Heaven...

"Bess?! Now what is this fellow complaining about? After all I was ready to give Sarah's shoemaker a good stake in the naval footwear trade. Bagwell took much less."

Robert Gertz on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

Interesting holy day by the way or should I say (holyday).

***
"In parentheses?!"

"I like it. It sets your name apart."

-Mel Brooks and the divine Anne Bancroft, "To Be Or Not To Be"

djc on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

"Interesting that the tenants would have had to pay for the fire’s damage…Would that have included the houses themselves as well as their lost possessions?"

That is the point. The property would have been leasehold (the land itself entailed so that it passed down through the landowner family). The building would have been on a full repairing lease, so at the end of the term (usually 99 years) the house reverts to the freeholder in good condition. So the tenant (leaseholder or possibly sub-leaseholder) would be liable for the restitution of the property after the fire. But not if the cause were enemy action. So there is a vested interest on the part of tenants to find evidence of plots.

Rex Gordon on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

"One convicted and hanged ... '

This unfortunate, and almost certainly mentally ill, fellow was named Robert Hubert, a 26-year-old watchmaker's son from Rouen in Normandy. He was lame and something of a drifter. He joined the exodus of foreigners from London after the fire and was stopped in Essex and taken in for questioning. He blurted out a remarkable story, claiming to be a member of an organized gang of incendiaries led by a man named Stephen Peidloe. He said he had been landed upriver while London was ablaze and instructed to throw a fireball near the Palace of Whitehall.

Later, his story would change in many details and was full of contradictions, including an assertion that he threw the first fireball into Farriner's bakery in Pudding Lane. The Lord Chief Justice, a formidable figure with a reputation for sternness, presided over the case at the Old Bailey and told Charles II that Hubert's story made no sense and he did not believe him guilty. But Hubert insisted that he was indeed guilty. Pudding Lane had ceased to exist, but Hubert actually led his jail keeper to the site of the bakery, although they had to ask a local man where it had stood. (It was later speculated that Hubert had been one of the many who flocked to the place to see where the fire had started and had acquired his knowledge that way.)

Hubert's insistence on his guilt was enough for the jury. He was hanged at Tyburn on October 29, 1666. According to one account he recanted his confession on the gallows, but it was too late.

(Summarized from Tinniswood, By Permission of Heaven, Pimlico 2004, pp 163-68.)

FJA on 6 Nov 2009 • Link

"Equivocation", a most excellent play just out this year, premiered at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival and now beginning to be performed elsewhere, deals with the Gunpowder Plot and the premise that it never really happened. According to the play, the King's top ministers needed a ruse in order to beat back Catholicism and consolidate their own power during the early years of the new reign, so they tried to get Shakespeare to write a pro-government play based on a fictional Gunpowder Plot which they had trumped up. Shakespeare, at great risk to himself and his men, delivers "MacBeth" instead, in part because King James wanted him to throw in some witches.

Andrew Hamilton on 7 Nov 2009 • Link

"So there is a vested interest on the part of tenants to find evidence of plots."

I concur.

Australian Susan on 23 Nov 2009 • Link

Se'ennight

Strange that we have lost this expression, but retained fortnight.

So Lady Jem "looks very well and fat" - Pregnant?? And a rich present (pearls *and* diamonds) from daddy in law for being so??

Thank you to djc for neat summary of the complex situation which is leasehold law in the UK. The Duke of Westminster still owns vast tracts of London, with long leasehold properties on them.

Paul Chapin on 24 Nov 2009 • Link

@Susan, "fortnight" is not in common usage in American English, although most educated people would understand it when they see it written, certainly better than "se'ennight." Don't know about Canada.

Second Reading

Terry Foreman on 4 Jan 2016 • Link

"Here my Lord and Sir Thomas Crew, Mr. John, and Dr. Crew, and two strangers."

L&M: On this day Dr. Nathaniel Crew, son of Lord Crew, and bother of Sir Thomas and John, was appointed chaplain-in-ordinary to the King.

Terry Foreman on 4 Jan 2016 • Link

"Mr. John Pickering is to be married this week, and to a fortune with 5000l."

For those who wonder about the link, L&M note this was presumably a mistake for Gilbert, son of Sir Gilbert Pickering (a brother-in-law of Sandwich), who on 16 November obtained a license for his marriage to Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Pinchor, a London draper. John, the eldest son, did not marry until 1669.

Terry Foreman on 1 Apr 2019 • Link

"my Lady Peterborough...makes mighty moan of the badness of the times, and her family as to money. My Lord’s passionateness for want thereof, and his want of coming in of rents, and no wages from the Duke of York. No money to be had there for wages nor disbursements, and therefore prays my assistance about his pension. "

L&M: Peterborough had relinquished the governorship of Tangier in 1662 in return for a life pension of £1000 p.a.., but had great difficulty in obtaining its payment. He also served in the household of the Duke of zyork. The fall of rents was a common complaint of landlords at this time.

Terry Foreman on 1 Apr 2019 • Link

"Thence to my Lord Crew’s, and there dined, and mightily made of, having not, to my shame, been there in 8 months "

L&M: In fact five and a half: https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…

Terry Foreman on 1 Apr 2019 • Link

"the land-tax will be but for so much; and when the war ceases, there will be no ground got by the Court to keep it up."

L&M: Crew was M.P. for Brackley, Northants. The government was pressing for an extension of the limited excise imposed in 1660 into a general one. on the ground that it would not reduce cash reserves so quickly as other methods, with the result that the public, as well as paying taxes, would be able to lend money: Cf. Warwick's views: https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…
But the country party preferred a temporary land-tax to another excidse, which they distrusted as leading too easily to the establishment of a horde of officials and above all of a standing army, like Cromwell's redcoats. See Milward, pp. 25, 309. The critics won and a land-tax was voted: https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/… and https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…

Terry Foreman on 1 Apr 2019 • Link

"Sir Thomas Crew...do, from what he hath heard at the Committee for examining the burning of the City, conclude it as a thing certain that it was done by plots; it being proved by many witnesses that endeavours were made in several places to encrease the fire, and that both in City and country it was bragged by several Papists that upon such a day or in such a time we should find the hottest weather that ever was in England, and words of plainer sense."

L&M: A committee of enquiry had been appointed by the Commons on 23 September, and reported on 22 January 1667: https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…
Crew was not a member of it. Cf. Sir T. Osborne (2 October): 'I have bin this afternoon imployed in the committee of examining persons suspected for fireing the Citty, but all the allegations are very frivolous, and people are generally satisfied that the fire was accidentall' (A. Browning, Danby, ii. 15).

Terry Foreman on 2 Apr 2019 • Link

"This is an excellent salvo for the tenants, and for which I am glad, because of my father’s house."

L&M: Lord Crew was referring to the bill drafted by the judges to deal with the situation affecting landlord and tenants which followed the Fire. Houses were nor insured, and strict application of the terms of the leases would have been impossible to enforce in most cases, and would indeed have been unjust if enforceable. But in October Hubert, a Frenchman, was convicted of starting the fire, and hanged on the 29th ]should be 27th]. Tenants were thereby exempt from responsibility. On 6 November the city sent a deputation to parliament thanking them for this decision. The bill became law in February 1667 and set up a Fire Court, staffed by common law judges but employing an equitable jurisdiction, to settle disputes. See https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/… and https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…
T.F. Reddaway, Rebuilding of London, pp. 76-7.

Terry Foreman on 2 Apr 2019 • Link

Robert Hubert

Robert Hubert (c. 1640 – 27 October 1666) was a watchmaker from Rouen, France, who was executed following his false confession of starting the Great Fire of London. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob…

Terry Foreman on 10 Apr 2019 • Link

"Thence by water to Westminster, and there at the Swan find Sarah is married to a shoemaker yesterday"

L&M: Sarah Huedell (Udall) was married to John Harmond on 4 November in St Margaret's, Westminster.

San Diego Sarah on 5 Nov 2019 • Link

Since we are discussing the alternative narratives about the Great Fire, you might be interested to read a fun novel about the adventures of 1666 by a true historian, J.D. Davies, who likes to also explore his knowledge creatively.

He published DEATH'S BRIGHT ANGEL as part of the 350th anniversary of these events. The last 40 pages are devoted to evidence that was withheld at the time, or narratives from people published decades later and ignored by historians who like the contemporary explanation that it was an accident.

There really is room for doubt here.

Old Street Historical Fiction
ISBN 978-1-910400-46-3

San Diego Sarah on 6 Nov 2019 • Link

"The fall of rents was a common complaint of landlords at this time."

Both Ormonde and Peterborough complaining of this today ... one in Ireland, and who knows where Peterborough's lands were.

Yesterday we found out that last March the Middlesex JP's got a nasty note from the Treasurer Earl of Southampton for not being diligent enough collecting the excise from a baker in Twickenham.

Why? My guess is that the plague had affected a lot of areas, and the dry summer probably means there was a bad harvest. The man in Twickenham would have been affected by both the impress of able-bodied men (which was before the harvest) and the loss of business due to the plague.

Or were people simply resisting paying for the wealthy merchants' war?

The elections around this time show local gentlemen being returned, with the cry of "No more courtiers". The country party versus the court party was shaping up.

Probably it's both resistance and inability.

Buffalo Gal on 6 Nov 2019 • Link

Here's a link to information about the church service held on November 5th, which later in the century was altered to include thanksgiving for the arrival of William III. http://cbladey.com/guy/html/litur…

San Diego Sarah on 6 Nov 2019 • Link

Thanks, Buffalo Gal ... I was interested to see that the second one giving thanks for William III's intervention called for a blessing on King George, so more poking around to find the date of its adoption is called for. I suppose it would be "bad form" for William to introduce this idea in his lifetime.

San Diego Sarah on 7 Dec 2020 • Link

The Fire Courts:

The problems created by the Great Fire: The legal system had to find a way to build a brick London, rather than replace the wooden one that burned, ... and finding a way for the landlords and tenants to share the costs so they had enough money to build, and no one went bankrupt.

To their great credit, the 22 Fire Court judges waived all fees. They donated their time to the process. Matthew Hale was one of the judges who went on to enjoy a storied career.
The judges heard 1,600 cases, most of which were cleared in the first two years, but the Fire Court lasted 10 years dealing with the myriad of details.

This was the first time that agreements were reached before the legal hearings, so in many ways the Fire Court functioned as a mediation court.
A group of solicitors became familiar with the process, the laws and the necessary documents, and they streamlined the conveyancing* process.
According to a biography I found about Pepys' friend, Sir Denis Gauden (one of the Sheriffs of the City of London that year), who represented the Mercer Company, so onto the Mercer Company fell the responsibility for this part of the process. (A function of keeping the peace, I suppose.)

https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play…

*Conveyancing is the English term for establishing and transferring title for a property.
In America, for instance, the legal system is not involved in real estate transactions.
I learned the history of my home town in Devonshire by typing real estate documents; many quite humble properties traced their way back to the Domesday Book compiled for William the Conqueror in 1086.

The biggest upheaval was always World War One when many of the landowners' sons died, and so the eldest daughters' husbands changed their names (hyphenated and otherwise) so family traditions could continue.

San Diego Sarah on 12 Dec 2020 • Link

Another Fire Court judge:

Sir John Kelynge, on 21 November, 1665, was elevated to the office of chief justice of the King's Bench.

He played a prominent role in events after the Great Fire in September, 1666 by presiding over the trial of the innocent but insane Frenchman, Robert Hubert, who confessed to setting the fire in the King's Bakehouse in Pudding Lane. Hubert was duly found guilty by the jury and executed by order of Kelynge, although Kelynge told Charles II that he did not believe a word of his confession.

Chief Justice Kelyng later led a commission to examine numerous other witnesses and concluded that the fire was started by accident and was so calamitous because of a number of circumstances, including the strong easterly winds.

Chief Justice Kelyng was also appointed one of the 22 "Fire Judges" to resolve disputes arising from the destruction caused by the Great Fire.

for more on unpleasant Justice Kelyng https://www.pepysdiary.com/encycl…

San Diego Sarah on 12 Dec 2020 • Link

A list of the Fire Court Judges:

The Fire of London Disputes Act 1666 was an Act of the Parliament of England (18 & 19 Cha. II c. 7) with the long title "An Act for erecting a Judicature for Determination of Differences touching Houses burned or demolished by reason of the late Fire which happened in London."

Following the Great Fire of London, Parliament established a court to settle all differences arising between landlords and tenants of burnt buildings, overseen by judges of the King's Bench, Court of Common Pleas and Court of Exchequer.

The 22 judges who served under the act included the following; I find it interesting that none of the biographies I cite mention the Fire Court, but they do say these men were actively judges at the time, so I am guessing they are the right men:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir…

San Diego Sarah on 24 Dec 2020 • Link

Even as Londoners dealt with the emotional devastation wrought by the Fire, plans to re-build were afoot and, along with managing the costs of such a massive enterprise, the pressing question arose of who owned what.

Historical novelist Andrew Taylor describes it in these terms: “From the Middle Ages, a web of ownership and occupancy patterns had developed, made up of freeholds, tenancies, sub leases, assignments, rents, fines and other legal mechanisms. [London] was riddled with inconsistencies, ambiguities and conflicting interests.

“Moreover, most leases included a clause obliging the lessee to rebuild in case of fire. While this was being done, the tenant had to continue paying rent. In the face of such a widespread disaster, at a time when many citizens had lost everything they had owned, this requirement was neither practical nor fair, since it placed the greater burden on that part of the population least able to bear it. It would also mean that the entire program of rebuilding could be held up while hundreds of individual cases worked their way through the courts.”

In response, the government established the Fire Court, housing it in a hall in Clifford’s Inn. It was, explains Taylor, a “special court set up to deal solely with property disputes that hindered the rebuilding of the city after the Great Fire. It handled more than 1,000 cases and imposed settlements on legal disputes that in usual circumstances could have dragged on for years.”

https://historicalnovelsociety.or…

San Diego Sarah on 30 May 2022 • Link

In May 1669 Cosmo, the future Grand Duke of Turin, visited London, and had this recorded in his Journal on the progress in rebuilding London, and the influence of the Fire Court is obvious:

In the late fire, there were consumed upwards of 12,000 of them [HOUSES], situate in 97 parishes; besides other edifices more conspicuous for their size and grandeur, among which, the magnificent church of St. Paul is quite ruined, no part of that large building being left standing, except the walls, nor is there any hope of seeing it again in its former state.

394

To provide against the damage which might arise in future from fire, when it accidentally breaks out in any part of the city (for in the recent conflagration the damage was very considerable, there being consumed, in the course of 9 days, merchandize to the amount of several millions, with all the booksellers' shops, which in St. Paul's Church Yard were very numerous and valuable) an edict has been published enjoining people to build with stone and brick, and to employ as little wood as possible; so that they now only use the latter to make the framework of the houses, the architraves, door-posts, and windows, constructing all the other parts of stone and brick.

In a short time, more than 5,000 houses, which were destroyed by the fire, have been rebuilt in a more regular and symmetrical manner, approximating to the good style introduced into Italy, and quite different from the ancient mode of building in use in this kingdom.

They have taken the same opportunity of widening and straightening the streets for the convenience of carriages and foot-passengers, making them, like those beyond the precincts of Old London, more modern, paved with stone, and elevated in the middle, with channels for water at the sides.

395

The advantage to the possessor of land may be understood from this circumstance; that though he lets his land for a term of years, yet it is for a high price, and at the end of the term the buildings erected on it become his property. During that time, however, the builder not only indemnifies himself for the expense he has been at, by letting the houses, but also clears a considerable sum; on which account, the buildings are multiplying every day and along with them, the rents of those who possess ground fit for the purpose, provided it be at a distance from the river, along the banks of which no more buildings are allowed to be erected, it being wished to extend the city in breadth, and to correct the defect under which it labours of being very long and too narrow.

San Diego Sarah on 30 May 2022 • Link

PAGE 2

This system is greatly to the advantage of the Earl of St. Albans, who is the owner of the whole of the square or place in which is the house he used to inhabit; this, in a little time, he will see covered with buildings, of which he will be the absolute proprietor.

@@@

From:
TRAVELS OF COSMO THE THIRD, GRAND DUKE OF TUSCANY,
THROUGH ENGLAND,
DURING THE REIGN OF KING CHARLES THE SECOND (1669)
TRANSLATED FROM THE ITALIAN MANUSCRIPT
https://archive.org/stream/travel…

His highness, Cosmo, must be considered only as a traveler. Under his direction, the narrator of the records was Count Lorenzo Magalotti, afterwards Secretary to the Academy del Cimento, and one of the most learned and eminent characters of the court of Ferdinand II.

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