Jesse on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

"I flinging myself, in a sad desperate condition, upon the bed"

How pathetic. If it's part act to keep the peace he's rather good but not helping himself. It's Pepys's nose that stands to be slit if Elizabeth in yet another "horrible rage" pulls too hard and yanks the ring out.

Chris Squire on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

'made it a piece of our league that I should alway take somebody with me . . '

‘league, n.2 Etym: French ligue . .
. . 2. gen. A covenant, compact, alliance. Now rare.
1509 S. Hawes Conuercyon Swerers (de Worde) 42 How that ye breke the lege of sothfastnesse.
. . 1667 Milton Paradise Lost iv. 339 Linkt in happie nuptial League.’ [OED]

Andrew Hamilton on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

W. Hewer winking upon me, I did write so with the name of a whore as that I did fear she might too probably have been prevailed upon to have been a whore by her carriage to me, and therefore as such I did resolve never to see her more.

Do you think Hewer delivered this message?

Robert Gertz on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

No doubt in my mind that Will did deliver the note but that he agreed with Sam that the "whore" was a bit much and found some way to delete it. Poor Bess...Ready to push for a quiet life in the country, regardless of the loss of their swinging London lifestyle, urging Sam to pray for God's help...Every night... For all her rages...And her innocent flirtations, and in spite of his behavior, she really loves the little idiot, more than the life he's given her, it seems. Fortunately Sam seems aware of it, to some extent. Though one must love that our boy can't help noting that his new chaste lifestyle will have the good effect of reducing costs, the practical side of virtue.

And interesting that Will backs up her list of potential suitors...That seems to be registering a little at last with Sam, that he might face some dangerous competition if he presses her any harder.

Phew...If this is more or less it, Sam has truly dodged several bullets. As has Deb Willet...

Of course, the way things have been going, tomorrow will be the day Mrs. Bagwell shows, heavily pregnant, on the front stoop.

Ralph Berry on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

" I find my wife on her bed in a horrible rage afresh..."

Some people thrive on all this drama and I am beginning to get the impression Mrs P was one of them. No stiff upper lip here, just bring it all out. She has got Sam well and truly by the proverbials and is squeezing the most out of them.

Will Hewer must be going home laughing with a great tale to tell his wife!

It would be interesting to find out if it was normal behavior in England in the 17C to be emotionally more open and flamboyant as we would now expect from a Mediterranean or South American culture compared with the reticent "show no emotion" up bringing we older Brits had.

Terry Foreman on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

"Drama Queen" Elizabeth Pepys, née St. Michel, has been feasting these past few years on French-influenced plays and French novels bought her by Mr. P.

Reminds me of Don Quixote, shaped by chivalric Romances, with which SP is faniliar. http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…

Andrew Hamilton on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

Shrewd assessment, Terry

jenny on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

"Some people thrive on all this drama and I am beginning to get the impression Mrs P was one of them."

Interesting (and ridiculous) comment. Also, Will Hewer is not married and would not find any of this the slightest bit amusing.

Ralph, have you ever seen anyone in the same circumstances in which the Pepys now find themselves and have you any idea how they behave?

Terry Foreman on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

Is Elizabeth Pepys threatening to be the first of the "Desperate Housewives"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desp…

Mark S on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

@Ralph Berry

The British 'stiff upper lip' was a Victorian invention. In the 17th and 18th centuries it was quite normal for men of all classes to weep in public, even officers and men in the army and navy.

Joe Connell on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

Can't but wonder what caused Elizabeth's outburst today (20 November), having been reasonably composed as Sam set out to work. Either receipt of further information about our Sam's activities (but retained) or a rather calculated negotiating ploy?

NJM on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

I may be wrong but I have in the back of my mind that I read somewhere that the letter to Deb was more than one page and that the offensive pieces Elizabeth wanted included were on the second page, so faithful Will Hewer only delivered the first page. Anyone else have a recollection of that ?

martinb on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

It is strange (to say the least) that Elizabeth Pepys has come in for so much criticism from commentators over the last few days. Perhaps admiration for Pepys the diarist is getting in the way here? To state the obvious, she's not the one who's been duplicitous and worse, she is simply fighting with all the weapons at her disposal to save her marriage, and little by little she seems to be pulling it off.

One of the few things you can say in Samuel Pepys's favour now is that he does not indulge in the provision of hollow excuses such as "She refused to dress the way I like her to", or "She should have paid me more attention" etc. He accepts that he is at fault and does not blame his "poor" wife for anything. In this respect at least, Pepys is behaving like a gentleman and is head and shoulders above somne of his admirers.

Phoenix on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

No, he is trying to preserve the peace and quiet of his house, a well regulated house where he can read his books, play his music, entertain and be merry. Does he regret his behaviour? Yes, in as much as his house is in turmoil, but less I think because he sees his behaviour as intrinsically abhorrent. No marriage is cut and dry, there is always a joint dynamic in place. No one is making excuses for Sam but at the same time the seemingly prevalent view that Bess is faultless should be balanced with a reminder that her past behaviour has troubled and angered Sam - with justification. And by the way what gentleman allows himself to surveilled, to be coerced into praying every night and to acquiesce in calling a friend a whore? Better yet, what person demands that he do so?

Jenny even as our insides are being ripped out we can and do play our roles and not always with sincerity. It's not at all ridiculous. It's human.

languagehat on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

"Interesting (and ridiculous) comment."

Well put.

"It is strange (to say the least) that Elizabeth Pepys has come in for so much criticism from commentators over the last few days."

From a very few commenters. I'm pretty sure most of us are entirely in sympathy with her, however much we enjoy the diary and its author.

Larry on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

Why ridiculous? Drama and histrionics, to which Mrs. Pepys is clearly attracted, detract from one's legitimacy as the injured party. She might have been better served to have addressed her grievances calmly and dispassionately. Otherwise, it becomes all about the drama, which some people clearly relish.

A. De Araujo on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

Sam should buy Bess a diamond ring or an expensive dress or even the carriage he has been contemplating buying for some time and peace will return to the household.

Barry P. Reich on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

"I did this night promise to my wife never to go to bed without calling upon God upon my knees by prayer, and I begun this night, and hope I shall never forget to do the like all my life; for I do find that it is much the best for my soul and body to live pleasing to God and my poor wife, and will ease me of much care as well as much expense."

Getting caught red-handed often leads to religious conversion. Plus ça change.

Dorothy on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

Bess is upset, and she has every right to be. Perhaps she doesn't always behave in the wisest way, but it is hard to be always wise when you are very much hurt and angry. Although I am sure the servants know all about it, she has kept what is going on as private as possible. She has attacked Deb only with words. She did not turn her out into the street, but let Deb stay until a new job could be found for her and she could leave quietly. In general her behavior has had the effect of guarding Sam's reputation and status. I think she has a right to a few bouts of hysterics.

AnnieC on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

"Some people thrive on all this drama and I am beginning to get the impression Mrs P was one of them."

Let's not be too hard on Mrs P. She's been stuck at home all day, presumably she can't go out unaccompanied, and there is no one to unburden herself to. (Oh, for a cellphone!) One can imagine the mental turmoil as all day long her mind goes over and over the details of her husband's infidelity.
Sam, on the other hand, has had a productive day away from the hothouse atmosphere at home, conducting business as usual, having a therapeutic heart-to-heart with Hewer, and returns feeling mentally refreshed and just about back to normal.
An explosion was inevitable.

Terry Foreman on 21 Nov 2011  •  Link

I've said she was a drama queen: Samuel has recorded a host of prior occasions on which Mrs P was upset -- at servants, allowance money, clothes, etc. Her quarreling with the help has caused them to leave with some regularity -- save for a few who had the personal stability to weather these passing storms; he has often ended the day lying low; but the next morning they are "friends" again.

She is who she is at 28. In this case Pepys accurately blames himself for her upset, and at 35, shares the drama -- which, in his case veers toward the financial and spiritual -- which are linked by his strong belief in prosperity's flowing from divine providence -- so characteristic of modern Protestantism.

They are young, ever-striving perfectionists and childless.

languagehat on 22 Nov 2011  •  Link

"She might have been better served to have addressed her grievances calmly and dispassionately."

Sounds like something Mr. Spock would say. Amazingly, perfectly ordinary people (i.e., not drama queens) frequently react with illogical emotionality to infidelity on the part of people they love and depend on.

Jenny on 22 Nov 2011  •  Link

"Jenny even as our insides are being ripped out we can and do play our roles and not always with sincerity. It’s not at all ridiculous. It’s human."

Hmmm, I think it's obvious to all that I have a very personal experience of these circumstances. When I first read the diary I couldn't believe how the truth resonated from all those years ago. It's one of the reasons I love the diary so much.

My use of the word "ridiculous" was regarding the idea that Elizabeth was being a drama queen. Language Hat gets it. In fact it is a tribute to the annotators and their relationships that they haven't been in this situation - you start to think everyone has.

Having been a member of an infidelity forum for ten years, I can assure you that Elizabeth is reacting exactly as anyone does under these circumstances, now or 400 years before.

Mary on 22 Nov 2011  •  Link

Histrionics?

Do consider that Deb is one of the few members of domestic staff that Elizabeth has managed to establish an easy and pleasant relationship with. The two women appear to have spent a great deal of companionable time together and Deb has become very much a part of the family. The discovered betrayal must feel doubly overwhelming in these circumstances and I'm not in the least surprised that Elizabeth exhibits the degree of shock and fury that Pepys describes.

languagehat on 22 Nov 2011  •  Link

I entirely agree with Jenny and Mary's eloquent comments.

jeannine on 22 Nov 2011  •  Link

In all fairness to Elizabeth, we have to keep in mind that all individuals process things differently on many levels (intellectually, emotionally, etc.). Working through ones feelings is part of a process that each person must experience and move through on their own terms and at their own pace. What comes to mind to me would be a grieving process, where every person may experience a loss but process it in a totally different way.

In terms of Elizabeth is a drama queen, just look at other ladies of the time -at one end there is Queen Catherine, who went through her early outburst of emotion over her betraying husband and then lived in a passive and 'accepting' (at least in public) manner as she processed her neglect and ongoing betrayals. Then there is Lady Castlemaine would make Elizabeth look like a docile lamb in comparison to her antics.

Elizabeth has lost a friend and in many ways her husband too. It really is quite soon to expect that she could look at Sam without reliving what must have been a horrible scene seeing her husband physically involved with Deb. She deserves whatever time and understanding she needs to work through it on her own terms.

Phoenix on 22 Nov 2011  •  Link

Interesting how the annotations have fallen out on this. Hopefully what we who care to comment as annotators are doing is to use our learning and life experience to interpret what Sam has chosen to reveal. None of us know what their marriage was really like but in the diversity of comments offered surely the diary becomes a richer read - not contested territory. And Jenny you are not alone among the annotators to have walked into that dark valley.

Terry Foreman on 22 Nov 2011  •  Link

Pepys himself sympathizes with the dramatic nature of Elizabeth's justifiable emotional response -- by which I mean, she acts out her negative feelings, as she typically does (no passive-aggression here: for decades I loved a women like her in this respect), and is demonstrative, doesn't hold her feelings in -- nor, now, this time, does he.

What he's done to her is multiply heinous, and he knows it: he's violated his marriage vows to her; he's cheated on her in her presence, with her confidant; he's lied about what he did; he's sworn it was over, but continued to pursue it in their home; and after Deb left pursued her even elsewhere in London, then perjured himself again in regard to his infidelities with other women.

She's been deeply wounded, perhaps irreparably.

----
I agree with Phoenix' post about the moving and insightful comments here.

Terry Foreman on 22 Nov 2011  •  Link

"‘league, n.2 Etym: French ligue . .
. . 2. gen. A covenant, compact, alliance. Now rare."

Rare? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leag…

languagehat on 23 Nov 2011  •  Link

You seem to have missed the "gen." This definition comes after "1. A military, political, or commercial covenant or compact made between parties for their mutual protection and assistance against a common enemy, the prosecution or safeguarding of joint interests, and the like"; 1.b. covers various historical entities like the Hanseatic League, and 1.c. associations like the Anti-Corn-Law League and the Football League. The general use, for any random agreement (e.g., "made it a piece of our league that I should alway take somebody with me"), is indeed rare. In general, the OED knows what it's talking about.

(It's also useful to keep in mind that in the unrevised letters of the OED, like L, "now" means "the late nineteenth century.")

serafina on 23 Nov 2011  •  Link

And lets not forget poor Deb. Violated by an employer, cast out and called a whore.

Terry Foreman on 25 Nov 2011  •  Link

"The general use, for any random agreement...is indeed rare."

lh, when we say two or more are "in league" is that phrase something else?

languagehat on 26 Nov 2011  •  Link

It's a fixed, and fairly archaic, expression, parallel to "kith and kin" (in that we don't use "kith" anywhere else).

Terry Foreman on 27 Nov 2011  •  Link

"made it a piece of our league"

I wonder if this "league" was written as we've been told some of SP's other oaths (and perhaps they all) have been? SP was a "get it in writing" type and from her recent demands, we find EP is also.

Australian Susan on 1 Dec 2011  •  Link

Elizabeth had, ultimately, no real power or rights except those allowed by her husband. Sam could have beaten her into submission to his behaviour and she would have had no recourse. Her sense of moral indignation and strength of will have won the day, but she has risked a great deal - because, as RG says she loves the little idiot. She truly is "mad about the boy". It was the betrayal in the home with one of the family - in the 17th c servants were family - that has outraged her. Hewer has been made privy to the details, but the whole household must have heard everything - lath and plaster walls are not soundproof. So, a new day dawns - wonder how long the praying on the knees each night will last?

pepfie on 15 Jan 2012  •  Link

"... I did write so with the name of a whore as that I did fear she might too probably have been prevailed upon to have been a whore by her carriage to me, and therefore as such I did resolve never to see her more."

To grasp the full glory of puritanical (or Jesuit?) reasoning this sentence ought to be converted in light of the known facts to direct speech and active voice:
"Since I could compel you to endure my groping and lately even to do a hand job I believe I might probably have succeeded in taking your maidenhead, too, which makes you a whore whom I won't see anymore."

Indeed "a bit much", to say the least.

Terry Foreman on 12 Feb 2020  •  Link

"This evening comes Mr. Billup to me, to read over Mr. Wren’s alterations of my draught of a letter for the Duke of York to sign, to the Board; which I like mighty well, they being not considerable, only in mollifying some hard terms, which I had thought fit to put in."

L&M: Cf. https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/… The draft and the letter (25 November) are reproduced in parallel column in PL 2242, PP. 122+.....

Terry Foreman on 12 Feb 2020  •  Link

Thomas Billup was Wren's clerk.

London Lynn on 10 Feb 2021  •  Link

Interesting to read all the comments and different points of view. It’s difficult to draw conclusions about what was acceptable in the 1660s when, in some ways, society has changed so dramatically and we are reading the diary in such different times. (Unfortunately domestic abuse is still predominantly male on female as is sexual abuse.) I do note though that Samuel has on many occasions been fearful of being seen when meeting up with his various lady friends and he seems to want to contain what has happened to within his household, presumably because of how it might affect his standing in the circles he operates in. So his behaviour not completely acceptable for his times ?

San Diego Sarah on 11 Feb 2021  •  Link

"So his behaviour not completely acceptable for his times?"

I suspect Pepys' behavior was fairly normal for his position in London. Maybe not in the country where opportunities were fewer. How completely acceptable that made it, who knows.

The number of sermons and theological tracts focusing on infidelity, even before Charles II came home, makes me think it was normal behavior. If people were obeying that particular commandment, the sermons would move on to another subject.

Few biographies lead me to think I'm reading about a happy arranged marriage. Many couples have no or just a couple of children. Wives often lived in the country and the men mostly in town, especially if they were members of Parliament.

The Stuarts were passionate people who lived with the constant threat of death from one of many contagious diseases. Being around death makes you want to live for today -- but protect your daughter's virginity because it's valuable; however, she married at 13 in the upper classes, so how hard was that?

The Stuarts certainly were not Victorians in attitude, much as we might want them to be. (And Victorians were known for their extra curricular activities, hence all the restrictions.)

Even the Puritans actively liked their women, and at least in the North American plantations, a large percentage of the girls were pregnant when they got married. (The stats are posted in our annotations somewhere).

Over the years Pepys had mentioned the current and former mistresses of most of his colleagues. He doesn't want to take them home to meet Elizabeth, probably because he doesn't want to give her ideas, and make his life miserable. (But then, we don't know what she got up to last summer in Brampton, do we?)

Pepys is probably discrete because he doesn't want to cause gossip or be blackmailed/compromised; it was a small world, and everyone spied on everyone. But if he's discrete, that indicates his behavior wasn't completely acceptable. If you've ever lived in a village, you've experienced what I'm referring to.

Actually, I'm surprised by how indiscrete he is many times in the Diary, and that recklessness means he has grown to like the danger of exposure. Reckless, especially with their maids. Which was common in those times as well.

If it was common, was it also completely acceptable? Not if you read the law briefs, but most of the time these affairs didn't end up in the law courts.

In short, I'd say their morals were about as acceptable as ours. But we have birth control, hotels, and can hide in large cities -- but most of all, we have forgiving divorce laws, and battered women's shelters. Today both men and women have choices.

mountebank on 20 Nov 2021  •  Link

Very surprising comments from a decade ago about the need for Elizabeth to respond to betrayal compounded by betrayal, with added gaslighting which she probably (correctly) suspected was going on, by being calm and dispassionate.

Still, that makes for a more interesting discussion than a hive mind.

Stephane Chenard on 21 Nov 2021  •  Link

The new Treasurers record in their minutes (preserved at https://www.british-history.ac.uk…) that, on the occasion of their "being also the first time" assembled with the Duke, they passed a "Money warrant for 3,449L 8s. 10d to Mr. Pepys for Tangier in full for the quarter ended the 4th inst[ant]". This would be the balance of the budget on which Sam had got an advance last Friday (https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…) One more reason to whistle a happy tune on the way to your peaceful home...

Stephane Chenard on 21 Nov 2021  •  Link

"Whore!" How original. But, again, how commonplace a profession on Whetstone's Park, home to the new employer procured for Ms Willett's, at least until he decided to move, with his chest of drawers, to more reputable quarters (safer, too, should the next Bawdy House riot have taken aim at his lodgings; briefing at https://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/…) Coincidence?

Gerald Berg on 21 Nov 2021  •  Link

Recall on April 1st just before Liz and Deb were to go to the country Sam molests Deb for the first time. He thereby ensures instability in both L&D's relationship to each other and Liz herself as householder. This is not about Sam's 'love' for Liz (or her 'anger' issues), this is about manipulation of one person by another to ensure they are seen to be unstable by all. Classic gaslighting.

Clark Kent on 21 Nov 2021  •  Link

"If you've ever lived in a village..."--there ain't generally much to see in a small town, but you make up for it with what you hear. One wonders if Tiger Woods had had as loyal a factotum as Will Hewer if he'd still be a champ...in golf and otherwise.

Vincent Telford on 21 Nov 2021  •  Link

I'd just like to say that in my view this is the best set of annotations I've read from any of the pages of this online diary.

As the saga of the triangle of Sam, Liz and Deb appears to be coming to a close - I like the way various perspectives from reader's experience to date and world view have enriched the reading of today's diary entry ... Sam of course has to be primarily credited with having left behind for posterity this window into his world and Phil Gyford for having set up and continuing to maintain this wonderful online resource ...

I hope Phil is willing and able to continue this work for another 10 year iteration! It seems cheeky to ask Phil for more of this time and skill; I'm fully aware of the level of commitment that involves.

Returning to this saga - it would be so much richer and fairer if we could read Liz and Deb's (and don't forget Will Hewer's and the maids) entries for the same days - but of course I'm just daydreaming - we're so lucky this diary has survived - it's first hand history gives real insight into what is common within human's internal experience across very different times - Pepy's 1660s London and our lives in the 21st century.

San Diego Sarah on 16 Jun 2022  •  Link

I agree, Vincent Telford. This is a fine set of annotations, which is why I remembered it when I read an article in HISTORY TODAY about why morals changed between the 18th and 19th century.
Basically it says:

18th century England was a surprisingly transgressive place. Pornographic literature was popular, and erotic manuals were read aloud in alehouses. Homosexuality was fashionable among gentlemen, serviced by cross-dressing rent boys in the Molly House. Contraceptives were sold openly in Covent Garden. Pamphlets like "Characters of the Present Most Celebrated Courtesans" provided titillating cartoons of rich women brought low by greed and desire. One victim was described as ‘expensive in dress, extravagant in the indulgence of her palate, violently addicted to wine and strong liquors which she often drinks to excess, not infrequently to intoxication’.

By the 1850's a popular re-assertion of Judeo-Christian morality had transformed English mores. The Victorians enjoyed vice as much as the Georgians – Queen Victoria collected nude male figure drawings.
Sex did not vanish in Victorian England, but it was idealized and privatized.
The Victorians scrubbed the public sphere clean of sensuality – with a combination of social regulation and mass-marketed carbolic soap.
Sexual energy was redirected to the monogamous family, and new values were created.
1870s scientists first categorized homosexual intercourse as a predilection rather than an act.
It is tempting to blame these changes on the prudery of an establishment desperate to re-assert control.

George III led the charge with his 1787 ‘Proclamation For the Encouragement of Piety and Virtue, and for the Preventing and Punishing of Vice, Profaneness and Immorality’ – an exhortation against pornography that later became the 1857 Obscene Publications Act.
This coincided with efforts to enforce a bourgeois sexual order upon the urban working class created by the Industrial Revolution.

But do not dismiss a genuine desire to improve. The new middle class saw a link between economics and morality that the Georgian aristocracy had not.
The Victorians believed hard work and abstinence could improve people, whereas decadence fostered indolence, disease and poverty.
By 1900 there were over 300 asylums for ‘fallen women’ in England, providing protection and backbreaking labor for rescued prostitutes. The asylums shiw a new sense of civic virtue that sought to rescue people from themselves.
It had a proto-feminist edge, protecting women against masculine lust that had run amok in the 18th century and objectified women as Fanny Hills.

The ethics of Christian capitalism gripped Britain well into the 1960s.

https://www.historytoday.com/arch…

San Diego Sarah on 4 Nov 2023  •  Link

“Even the Puritans actively liked their women, and at least in the North American plantations, a large percentage of the girls were pregnant when they got married. (The stats are posted in our annotations somewhere.)“

I found the stats: “one in 10 of every first child born in colonial America was born 8 months after marriage.

One poem of the time, reprinted by Stiles, serves as a cautionary tale:
“A bundling couple went to bed
With all their clothes from foot to head;
That the defense might seem complete
Each one was wrapped in a sheet
But oh, this bundling’s such a witch
The man of her did catch the itch,
And so provoked was the wretch
That she of his a bastard catch’d.
“If this happened, of course the family knew who the child’s father was, and a marriage was often secured immediately to save the daughter’s reputation.

"In Tudor England’s lower economic classes in particular, premarital sex was less of a social issue; simple contracts signed by the betrothed fathers, along with the town’s general acceptance of the union, was usually enough to officiate marriage.”

See https://www.atlasobscura.com/arti…

jimmigee on 20 May 2024  •  Link

A most enjoyable batch of comments. Like someone took a stick and prodded the hive of annotators.