In 1662 Jamaica was under threat of attack by the Spanish of Cuba. On 12 September 12 the Council proposed 'that men be enlisted for a design by sea with the Centurion and other vessels.' This 'design' was a buccaneering expedition to destroy St. Jago de Cuba (Santiago del Cuba), the nearest to Jamaican shores. https://books.google.com/books?id…
Yes they did, but the keys were very large and heavy, and the systems expensive. The average door to the outside world was barred from the inside by a large plank which lodged on either side of the door in a U-shaped holder.
Most people had little to protect, besides their lives.
Yes they did, but the keys were very large and heavy, and the systems expensive. The average door to the outside world was barred from the inside by a large plank which lodged on either side of the door in a U-shaped holder.
Most people had little to protect, besides their lives.
I suspect it is locked in the wine cellar in the basement.
"Tonight I took occasion with the vintner’s man, who came by my direction to taste again my tierce of claret, to go down to the cellar with him to consult about the drawing of it; and there, to my great vexation, I find that the cellar door hath long been kept unlocked, and above half the wine drunk. I was deadly mad at it, and examined my people round, but nobody would confess it; ..." http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
There was another story a couple of years ago about some treasure being unloaded by him and Creed one evening and stored in his house overnight, which I have not been able to track down. That may also give us a clue where he kept the goodies.
"I hear how Nich. Colborne, that lately lived and got a great estate there, is gone to live like a prince in the country, and that this Wadlow, that did the like at the Devil by St. Dunstane’s, did go into the country, and there spent almost all he had got, and hath now choused this Colborne out of his house, that he might come to his old trade again."
Pepys has got his facts wrong again. This part of the manor of Esher is now known as Claremont, and was later home to Queen Victoria and Clive of India. Nicholas Colborne's house is long gone. But according to http://www.british-history.ac.uk/… he lived there until 1677:
In 1659 George Price and Margaret his wife quitclaimed the manor of Claremont, which was originally part of the manor of Esher Episcopi, to Walter Plomer and his sister Elizabeth, (fn. 18) who held a manorial court here in 1662, (fn. 19)
In 1663, in conjunction with George Price and his wife Margaret and their son and heir, John, they conveyed Claremont to Nicholas Colborne, citizen and vintner of London, in consideration of the sum of £9,104 14s. 6d. paid to Sir Walter Plomer and his sister Elizabeth, and a competent sum to John Price. (fn. 20)
[I think this means Colborne paid £9,104 14s. 6d. to both John Price and the Plomers? I.E. the property cost £18,209 9s.]
Nicholas Colborne mortgaged the estate of Claremont, which in 1677 was purchased by Philip Doughty. (fn. 21) ...
So who knows what Capt. Wadlow was up to. He doesn't warrant a mention in the official history.
"If this was planned and organized by the British MI5/MI6 of the time, ..."
Seems to me Cromwell's spymaster Downing has his hands full at the Hague, and although he must have spies reporting to him, Charles must have had someone in London coordinating his intelligence. I understand Thomas Chiffinch did some security and confidential work, but he sounds more like the Secret Service than a spymaster (a la Burleigh). Maybe Hyde kept the secrets? -- he seems a bit too busy with other matters. Any nominations?
I'm thinking that must be John Paulet, 5th Marquis of Winchester. At the Restoration, he regained his estates. Despite a resolution by the Cavalier Parliament, he was never compensated for losses incurred in King Charles' service.
At this time he was lived quietly at Englefield House, Berkshire, where his main interests were in agricultural improvement and literature. He never attempted to rebuild Basing House.
I guess he was on "special assignment" to Somerset to round up some fishermen? Or is there some other Poulett I am unaware of?
"He was no Swede, he was Dutch. Makes it even stranger."
Not every Dutchman liked the De Witt regime. But the little Stadholder, William, was under the Regency of an English mother and Dutch grandmother who did not agree about anything, so he was in no position to contest the Dutch republic. To me, that the liar was Dutch makes more sense than his being Swedish.
Royalist Colonel Thomas Blagge died on 14 November 1660 (6 months of the Restoration) aged 47 and was buried in the north cross of Westminster Abbey. He left a widow who survived him by 10 years and four young daughters, Henrietta Maria, Dorothy, Mary and Margaret.
The Count de Grammont's "La Blonde Blague" refers to Henrietta Maria Blague, or Blagge, who was appointed maid of honour to Anne Hyde, Duchess of York in 1662, and shortly afterwards married Sir Thomas Yarborough.
Her younger sister, Margaret, was the intimate friend of John Evelyn and before and during her marriage to Sidney Godolphin. -- Florence Macarthy: An Irish Tale: By Sydney Owenson https://books.google.com/books?is…
Matt, perhaps we should instead think about what we do to keep our teeth ... flossing ... good diet ... regular repairs instead of waiting for extractions ... fluoride ... antibiotics ... even braces/retainers to straighten our teeth and correct the bite. Teeth are one of the design flaws in the human body -- or were just designed to last 40 years and not three score and ten we now consider normal.
Welcome Michael ... you bring up an interesting point: Maybe Elizabeth's insecurity with staff was because English was her second language and culture?
This is fun ... a map from 1682, overlaid by a current map. For instance, seeing how the large gardens of Arundal House have been developed, and where Big and Little Tower Green were is fascinating.
On public baths in the 1660's and also Rochester -- I certainly hope Elizabeth wasn't going here:
London libertines of both sexes made their way to the baths in Leather Lane, Holborn, to "take the cure" for venereal disease. (The cure largely consisted of alternately sweating in a tub and taking mercury over an extended period of time. A letter of Henry Savile's to Rochester, complains of "that whole stock of mercury that has gone down my throat in seven months.")
Anyone know what Rochester did between Christmas Day 1664 (when he delivered Minette's letter to Charles II) and today, February 21, when he has been kicked out of Court and has had time to set himself up playing pranks on the (quite elderly for the times) daughters of his father's friends?
I have to get a Rochester biography. Any recommendations?
And this story reads two ways now. 1) Pepys says Rochester set up the two girls to make a spectacle of themselves. But 2) Mrs. Jameson says the women wanted to meet him and thought this was a good way to do so. Grammont seems to be more in the Pepys camp.
Grammont tells the story in detail in Chapter X. Most of the chapter is about Rochester, if you care to read it all, or you can scroll down and find the highlighted “famous German doctor” and read from there.
"What mad freaks the Maids of Honour at Court have the Mrs Jennings, one of the Duchess' maids, the other day dressed herself like an orange wench"
From "Beauties of the Court of Charles II” by Mrs. Jameson: 'The cause of the ‘shameful’ outing of Miss Jennings and a Miss Price was that they had been duped into the first of the many ongoing and outlandish frolics of a now 18-year-old Lord Rochester, who was parading as a German doctor and astrologer.'
Frances Jennings, sister of the future Duchess of Marlborough, inspired Anthony Hamilton to write, “Her face reminded me of the dawn, or of some Goddess of the Spring.” On one occasion she and her fellow maid of honour, Goditha Price, disguised as orange girls, sold fruit at the theatre. They went unrecognised by the male courtiers who accosted them, or their mistress the Duchess of York. http://englishhistoryauthors.blog…...
Goditha Price -- Maid of Honor to the Duchess of York -- daughter of Sir Herbert Price MP, Master of the King's Household. L&M say she was called "fat price" in *Memoirs of Count Gramont* By Anthony, Count Hamilton http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo… Born in Llanguick, Glamorganshire, Wales on 16 Jan 1637. So she was aged 28 in 1665.
James, Duke of York was also known to have had an affair with Goditha Price, daughter of Herbert Price, 1st Baronet of the Priory. http://listverse.com/2011/04/21/t…...
Clarendon described Herbert Price, 1st Bart. as much trusted by Henry Wilmot, 1st Earl of Rochester, so he may have been the way John Wilmot, 2nd Duke of Rochester met the two women. ... Herbert Price, 1st Bart MP became interested in the relief of poor prisoners, serving on a committee in 1665; but his position at Court was strengthened by the success of his daughter, ‘fat Price’, whose ample charms and compliant disposition made her a conquest of the Duke of York. http://www.historyofparliamentonl…...
The Windsor Beauties: Ladies of the Court of Charles II -- THE first four Maids of Honour of the Duchess of York MAIDS OF HONOUR GODITHA PRICE; HENRIETTA MARIA BLAGGE; MISS HOBART; AND ELIZABETH BAGOT, COUNTESS OF FALMOUTH, AFTERWARDS COUNTESS OF DORSET 1643 - 1684 https://books.google.com/books?is… BY Lewis Melville
Interesting that Pepys tells us gossip about Charles II, but nothing about his boss' side affairs.
Sounds like John Evelyn may be dealing more with father Price later in the year, taking care of the prisoners of war.
"The King seems to purpose, with respect to Colonel [Richard] Talbot, to order him to be taken out of the Tower, but not to see him or to permit his return to Court."
So you are suggesting there could have been a "Catholic Intrigue" between Charles II and Secretary Bennet to free Talbot?
Why alert Ormonde to the fact ... except to say the Irish fanatic who wanted to kill you 3 years ago is about to be released from the Tower? I still see this as a courtesy note and will need more evidence to suspect Charles and Bennet of working with the Irish rebels. I like my Louis XIV theory better. 8-)
Thanks, Terry, for that wonderful info about the Carte MSS. It was on my To Do List to find out about them, and I'm sure the gang in years to come will also be interested. &&&
"Terry speculates about a Catholic intrigue leading to Secretary Bennet telling Ormonde that Col. Richard Talbot is to be released."
"Sarah, that was not speculation. I was responding to an extant letter dated this date in 1665 in the online electronic catalogue of the Carte Papers."
Terry, I read the letter you posted before I wrote my annotation. Nowhere in it do I see anything justifying what I think is your editorial headline of "Catholic Intrigue". Now if that's actually what the Carte MMS says, that's different. Back in 2008 you and The Salty One often made up playful headlines.
True, there were lots of Irish Catholic Intrigues in 1665 and later. Talbot's bio leads me to believe he was involved in many of them.
Maybe you are implying Secretary Bennet was a closet Catholic (good friend of a known Roman Catholic, the Earl of Bristol) and therefore suspect of bribery? ... but I see "Secretary of State Sir Henry Bennet, Baron Arlington married 16 Apr. 1666, Isabella, da. of Lodewyk van Nassau, Lord of Beverweerd, 1 da.
"Sir Henry Bennet, Baron Arlington is probably the only secretary of state to have married an enemy alien in the middle of a hard-fought war; but his choice was politically sound, for she was not only an impeccable Protestant but sister-in-law to Thomas Butler, through whom Arlington formed an invaluable reinsurance with the Church party." http://www.historyofparliamentonl…
We can agree James Butler, Duke of Ormonde was definitely not an Irish conspirator. So a conspiracy between Ormonde and Bennet is highly unlikely. Nor would Ormonde's duties be involved in Talbot's release. But since Talbot was imprisoned for challenging Ormonde to a duel in 1661, Ormonde would have wanted to know the man was on the loose again.
So I repeat my question, "Terry may know more about this, but why would Charles II play into the hand of the Irish rebels?"
Logically no one here is an Irish conspirator.
I suspect it was impossible for Charles to keep Talbot locked up without trial any longer. Maybe keeping him locked up was making things worse in Ireland?
One conspiracy theory I can come up with is that Charles was paid off by Louis XIV who wanted to ferment cheap rebellion in Ireland, and the money was delivered by the good old Irish Earl of Castlemaine. You think????? 8-)
Your knowledge of 17th century history is far superior to mine, and may have prompted a "Spoiler Alert" headline -- I dunno. But I still don't think the letter as posted calls for this conclusion.
I was surprised there were no annotations about Elizabeth's hot-house visit. Where it was ... ladies only on Tuesdays ... Rochester lurking behind the curtains ... whatever. So I went hunting and discovered that:
Roman-style public baths were introduced by returning crusaders in the 11th and 12th centuries, who had enjoyed warm baths in the Middle East. Baths came and went over the centuries, only to be closed by Henry VIII because of prostitution. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pub…
Christianity turns out to be the only global religion with no laws about hygiene. In the early years of the church, the holier you were, the dirtier you were. Cleanliness was a luxury, because cleanliness was comfortable and attractive. The holier the monk, hermit and saint, the less they wash. The smellier you were, the closer to God people perceived you to be.
When the Black Death arrived in the 14th century, the king of France asked the medical faculty at the Sorbonne, "What is causing this hideous plague that is killing one out of every three Europeans, and what can we do to prevent it?" And the doctor opined that the people most at risk for catching the plague had opened their pores in hot bath water, making them more susceptible.
So in France, England and most European countries for about 500 years, people believed it was dangerous to bathe.
In the 17th century the cuffs and collar of a shirt were thought to be wicks that drew out dirt. People believed it safer to change their linen shirt than to bathe. They thought the flax in the linen exerted a magnetic attraction to sweat and drew it out of the body.
In the Middle Ages, St. Bernard said, "We all stink. No one smells." so they must have had tolerance for body odor. Think about smoking. I never smelled it as a child when everyone smoked, but now I can smell the traces of nicotine in someone's hair or on a hotel pillow.
The 17th century was arguably the dirtiest in Western history. People wore perfume so they couldn't smell their neighbors. One story goes that Madame de Montespan (mistress of Louis XIV) doused herself in perfume so she couldn't smell Louis' halitosis. But he hated perfume because it gave him headaches. One day they had a big fight about it in his coach, in front of Queen Marie Thérèse . SEE https://www.salon.com/2007/11/30/…
On 4 April 1662 the House of Commons voted against erecting and using of public and artificial Baths and Bath-stoves
However, around 1679 a public bath called The Duke of York’s Bagnio or the Royal Bagnio was provided by the Duke of York in Roman Bath Street, London. Medals or tokens, bearing the figure of a man for men’s baths and a women for women’s baths, with respective days of admission, were issued. This is a long and interesting account ... SEE http://www.bathsandwashhouses.co.…
"Lady Castlemayne will in merriment say that her daughter (not above a year old or two) ..."
This is linked to Charlotte Fitzroy Palmer, who was the second daughter of Barbara Villiers Palmer, Countess of Castlemaine, and was born 5 September 1664 making her 5 months old.
However, Charles II and Barbara's first daughter is also alive and well, and would be going on four:
Anne Palmer Fitzroy (later Anne Lennart, Countess of Sussex) (25 February 1661 – 16 May 1721 or 1722) -- for more information, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann…...
Personally, if I were the mother, I'd be boasting about how precocious my 4 year old was, not the 6 month old.
Comments
Second Reading
About Cuba
San Diego Sarah • Link
In 1662 Jamaica was under threat of attack by the Spanish of Cuba. On 12 September 12 the Council proposed 'that men be enlisted for a design by sea with the Centurion and other vessels.' This 'design' was a buccaneering expedition to destroy St. Jago de Cuba (Santiago del Cuba), the nearest to Jamaican shores. https://books.google.com/books?id…
About Monday 30 January 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Didn’t they have door locks in those days?"
Yes they did, but the keys were very large and heavy, and the systems expensive. The average door to the outside world was barred from the inside by a large plank which lodged on either side of the door in a U-shaped holder.
Most people had little to protect, besides their lives.
About Monday 30 January 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Didn’t they have door locks in those days?"
Yes they did, but the keys were very large and heavy, and the systems expensive. The average door to the outside world was barred from the inside by a large plank which lodged on either side of the door in a U-shaped holder.
Most people had little to protect, besides their lives.
About Monday 30 January 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Where might it be located?"
I suspect it is locked in the wine cellar in the basement.
"Tonight I took occasion with the vintner’s man, who came by my direction to taste again my tierce of claret, to go down to the cellar with him to consult about the drawing of it; and there, to my great vexation, I find that the cellar door hath long been kept unlocked, and above half the wine drunk. I was deadly mad at it, and examined my people round, but nobody would confess it; ..." http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
There was another story a couple of years ago about some treasure being unloaded by him and Creed one evening and stored in his house overnight, which I have not been able to track down. That may also give us a clue where he kept the goodies.
About Saturday 25 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"I hear how Nich. Colborne, that lately lived and got a great estate there, is gone to live like a prince in the country, and that this Wadlow, that did the like at the Devil by St. Dunstane’s, did go into the country, and there spent almost all he had got, and hath now choused this Colborne out of his house, that he might come to his old trade again."
Pepys has got his facts wrong again. This part of the manor of Esher is now known as Claremont, and was later home to Queen Victoria and Clive of India. Nicholas Colborne's house is long gone. But according to http://www.british-history.ac.uk/… he lived there until 1677:
In 1659 George Price and Margaret his wife quitclaimed the manor of Claremont, which was originally part of the manor of Esher Episcopi, to Walter Plomer and his sister Elizabeth, (fn. 18) who held a manorial court here in 1662, (fn. 19)
In 1663, in conjunction with George Price and his wife Margaret and their son and heir, John, they conveyed Claremont to Nicholas Colborne, citizen and vintner of London, in consideration of the sum of £9,104 14s. 6d. paid to Sir Walter Plomer and his sister Elizabeth, and a competent sum to John Price. (fn. 20)
[I think this means Colborne paid £9,104 14s. 6d. to both John Price and the Plomers? I.E. the property cost £18,209 9s.]
Nicholas Colborne mortgaged the estate of Claremont, which in 1677 was purchased by Philip Doughty. (fn. 21) ...
So who knows what Capt. Wadlow was up to. He doesn't warrant a mention in the official history.
About Saturday 25 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"If this was planned and organized by the British MI5/MI6 of the time, ..."
Seems to me Cromwell's spymaster Downing has his hands full at the Hague, and although he must have spies reporting to him, Charles must have had someone in London coordinating his intelligence. I understand Thomas Chiffinch did some security and confidential work, but he sounds more like the Secret Service than a spymaster (a la Burleigh). Maybe Hyde kept the secrets? -- he seems a bit too busy with other matters. Any nominations?
About Saturday 25 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Ormond to Lord Poulett"
I'm thinking that must be John Paulet, 5th Marquis of Winchester. At the Restoration, he regained his estates. Despite a resolution by the Cavalier Parliament, he was never compensated for losses incurred in King Charles' service.
At this time he was lived quietly at Englefield House, Berkshire, where his main interests were in agricultural improvement and literature. He never attempted to rebuild Basing House.
I guess he was on "special assignment" to Somerset to round up some fishermen? Or is there some other Poulett I am unaware of?
For more info on the Marquis, see http://bcw-project.org/biography/…
About Saturday 25 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"He was no Swede, he was Dutch. Makes it even stranger."
Not every Dutchman liked the De Witt regime. But the little Stadholder, William, was under the Regency of an English mother and Dutch grandmother who did not agree about anything, so he was in no position to contest the Dutch republic. To me, that the liar was Dutch makes more sense than his being Swedish.
About Margaret Blagge
San Diego Sarah • Link
Royalist Colonel Thomas Blagge died on 14 November 1660 (6 months of the Restoration) aged 47 and was buried in the north cross of Westminster Abbey. He left a widow who survived him by 10 years and four young daughters, Henrietta Maria, Dorothy, Mary and Margaret.
The Count de Grammont's "La Blonde Blague" refers to Henrietta Maria Blague, or Blagge, who was appointed maid of honour to Anne Hyde, Duchess of York in 1662, and shortly afterwards married Sir Thomas Yarborough.
Her younger sister, Margaret, was the intimate friend of John Evelyn and before and during her marriage to Sidney Godolphin. -- Florence Macarthy: An Irish Tale: By Sydney Owenson https://books.google.com/books?is…
About Thursday 26 January 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
Matt, perhaps we should instead think about what we do to keep our teeth ... flossing ... good diet ... regular repairs instead of waiting for extractions ... fluoride ... antibiotics ... even braces/retainers to straighten our teeth and correct the bite. Teeth are one of the design flaws in the human body -- or were just designed to last 40 years and not three score and ten we now consider normal.
About Saturday 4 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
Welcome Michael ... you bring up an interesting point: Maybe Elizabeth's insecurity with staff was because English was her second language and culture?
About Wednesday 25 January 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
Wish I could join you, British Rose.
About Wednesday 25 January 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
This is fun ... a map from 1682, overlaid by a current map. For instance, seeing how the large gardens of Arundal House have been developed, and where Big and Little Tower Green were is fascinating.
http://maps.arcgis.com/apps/Story…
About Tuesday 21 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
On public baths in the 1660's and also Rochester -- I certainly hope Elizabeth wasn't going here:
London libertines of both sexes made their way to the baths in Leather Lane, Holborn, to "take the cure" for venereal disease. (The cure largely consisted of alternately sweating in a tub and taking mercury over an extended period of time. A letter of Henry Savile's to Rochester, complains of "that whole stock of mercury that has gone down my throat in seven months.")
For more information, see:
http://www.okima.com/tour/holborn…
About Tuesday 21 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
Anyone know what Rochester did between Christmas Day 1664 (when he delivered Minette's letter to Charles II) and today, February 21, when he has been kicked out of Court and has had time to set himself up playing pranks on the (quite elderly for the times) daughters of his father's friends?
I have to get a Rochester biography. Any recommendations?
And this story reads two ways now. 1) Pepys says Rochester set up the two girls to make a spectacle of themselves. But 2) Mrs. Jameson says the women wanted to meet him and thought this was a good way to do so. Grammont seems to be more in the Pepys camp.
Grammont tells the story in detail in Chapter X. Most of the chapter is about Rochester, if you care to read it all, or you can scroll down and find the highlighted “famous German doctor” and read from there.
About Tuesday 21 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"What mad freaks the Maids of Honour at Court have the Mrs Jennings, one of the Duchess' maids, the other day dressed herself like an orange wench"
From "Beauties of the Court of Charles II” by Mrs. Jameson:
'The cause of the ‘shameful’ outing of Miss Jennings and a Miss Price was that they had been duped into the first of the many ongoing and outlandish frolics of a now 18-year-old Lord Rochester, who was parading as a German doctor and astrologer.'
Frances Jennings, sister of the future Duchess of Marlborough, inspired Anthony Hamilton to write, “Her face reminded me of the dawn, or of some Goddess of the Spring.” On one occasion she and her fellow maid of honour, Goditha Price, disguised as orange girls, sold fruit at the theatre. They went unrecognised by the male courtiers who accosted them, or their mistress the Duchess of York. http://englishhistoryauthors.blog…...
Goditha Price -- Maid of Honor to the Duchess of York -- daughter of Sir Herbert Price MP, Master of the King's Household. L&M say she was called "fat price" in *Memoirs of Count Gramont* By Anthony, Count Hamilton http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo… Born in Llanguick, Glamorganshire, Wales on 16 Jan 1637. So she was aged 28 in 1665.
James, Duke of York was also known to have had an affair with Goditha Price, daughter of Herbert Price, 1st Baronet of the Priory. http://listverse.com/2011/04/21/t…...
Clarendon described Herbert Price, 1st Bart. as much trusted by Henry Wilmot, 1st Earl of Rochester, so he may have been the way John Wilmot, 2nd Duke of Rochester met the two women. ... Herbert Price, 1st Bart MP became interested in the relief of poor prisoners, serving on a committee in 1665; but his position at Court was strengthened by the success of his daughter, ‘fat Price’, whose ample charms and compliant disposition made her a conquest of the Duke of York. http://www.historyofparliamentonl…...
The Windsor Beauties: Ladies of the Court of Charles II -- THE first four Maids of Honour of the Duchess of York MAIDS OF HONOUR GODITHA PRICE; HENRIETTA MARIA BLAGGE; MISS HOBART; AND ELIZABETH BAGOT, COUNTESS OF FALMOUTH, AFTERWARDS COUNTESS OF DORSET 1643 - 1684 https://books.google.com/books?is… BY Lewis Melville
Interesting that Pepys tells us gossip about Charles II, but nothing about his boss' side affairs.
Sounds like John Evelyn may be dealing more with father Price later in the year, taking care of the prisoners of war.
About Tuesday 21 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"The King seems to purpose, with respect to Colonel [Richard] Talbot, to order him to be taken out of the Tower, but not to see him or to permit his return to Court."
So you are suggesting there could have been a "Catholic Intrigue" between Charles II and Secretary Bennet to free Talbot?
Why alert Ormonde to the fact ... except to say the Irish fanatic who wanted to kill you 3 years ago is about to be released from the Tower? I still see this as a courtesy note and will need more evidence to suspect Charles and Bennet of working with the Irish rebels. I like my Louis XIV theory better. 8-)
About Tuesday 21 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
Thanks, Terry, for that wonderful info about the Carte MSS. It was on my To Do List to find out about them, and I'm sure the gang in years to come will also be interested.
&&&
"Terry speculates about a Catholic intrigue leading to Secretary Bennet telling Ormonde that Col. Richard Talbot is to be released."
"Sarah, that was not speculation. I was responding to an extant letter dated this date in 1665 in the online electronic catalogue of the Carte Papers."
Terry, I read the letter you posted before I wrote my annotation. Nowhere in it do I see anything justifying what I think is your editorial headline of "Catholic Intrigue". Now if that's actually what the Carte MMS says, that's different. Back in 2008 you and The Salty One often made up playful headlines.
True, there were lots of Irish Catholic Intrigues in 1665 and later. Talbot's bio leads me to believe he was involved in many of them.
Maybe you are implying Secretary Bennet was a closet Catholic (good friend of a known Roman Catholic, the Earl of Bristol) and therefore suspect of bribery? ... but I see "Secretary of State Sir Henry Bennet, Baron Arlington married 16 Apr. 1666, Isabella, da. of Lodewyk van Nassau, Lord of Beverweerd, 1 da.
"Sir Henry Bennet, Baron Arlington is probably the only secretary of state to have married an enemy alien in the middle of a hard-fought war; but his choice was politically sound, for she was not only an impeccable Protestant but sister-in-law to Thomas Butler, through whom Arlington formed an invaluable reinsurance with the Church party."
http://www.historyofparliamentonl…
We can agree James Butler, Duke of Ormonde was definitely not an Irish conspirator. So a conspiracy between Ormonde and Bennet is highly unlikely. Nor would Ormonde's duties be involved in Talbot's release. But since Talbot was imprisoned for challenging Ormonde to a duel in 1661, Ormonde would have wanted to know the man was on the loose again.
So I repeat my question, "Terry may know more about this, but why would Charles II play into the hand of the Irish rebels?"
Logically no one here is an Irish conspirator.
I suspect it was impossible for Charles to keep Talbot locked up without trial any longer. Maybe keeping him locked up was making things worse in Ireland?
One conspiracy theory I can come up with is that Charles was paid off by Louis XIV who wanted to ferment cheap rebellion in Ireland, and the money was delivered by the good old Irish Earl of Castlemaine. You think????? 8-)
Your knowledge of 17th century history is far superior to mine, and may have prompted a "Spoiler Alert" headline -- I dunno. But I still don't think the letter as posted calls for this conclusion.
About Tuesday 21 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
I was surprised there were no annotations about Elizabeth's hot-house visit. Where it was ... ladies only on Tuesdays ... Rochester lurking behind the curtains ... whatever. So I went hunting and discovered that:
Roman-style public baths were introduced by returning crusaders in the 11th and 12th centuries, who had enjoyed warm baths in the Middle East. Baths came and went over the centuries, only to be closed by Henry VIII because of prostitution. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pub…
Christianity turns out to be the only global religion with no laws about hygiene. In the early years of the church, the holier you were, the dirtier you were. Cleanliness was a luxury, because cleanliness was comfortable and attractive. The holier the monk, hermit and saint, the less they wash. The smellier you were, the closer to God people perceived you to be.
When the Black Death arrived in the 14th century, the king of France asked the medical faculty at the Sorbonne, "What is causing this hideous plague that is killing one out of every three Europeans, and what can we do to prevent it?" And the doctor opined that the people most at risk for catching the plague had opened their pores in hot bath water, making them more susceptible.
So in France, England and most European countries for about 500 years, people believed it was dangerous to bathe.
In the 17th century the cuffs and collar of a shirt were thought to be wicks that drew out dirt. People believed it safer to change their linen shirt than to bathe. They thought the flax in the linen exerted a magnetic attraction to sweat and drew it out of the body.
In the Middle Ages, St. Bernard said, "We all stink. No one smells." so they must have had tolerance for body odor. Think about smoking. I never smelled it as a child when everyone smoked, but now I can smell the traces of nicotine in someone's hair or on a hotel pillow.
The 17th century was arguably the dirtiest in Western history. People wore perfume so they couldn't smell their neighbors. One story goes that Madame de Montespan (mistress of Louis XIV) doused herself in perfume so she couldn't smell Louis' halitosis. But he hated perfume because it gave him headaches. One day they had a big fight about it in his coach, in front of Queen Marie Thérèse . SEE https://www.salon.com/2007/11/30/…
On 4 April 1662 the House of Commons voted against erecting and using of public and artificial Baths and Bath-stoves
However, around 1679 a public bath called The Duke of York’s Bagnio or the Royal Bagnio was provided by the Duke of York in Roman Bath Street, London. Medals or tokens, bearing the figure of a man for men’s baths and a women for women’s baths, with respective days of admission, were issued. This is a long and interesting account ... SEE http://www.bathsandwashhouses.co.…
I hope people have more to add to this.
About Tuesday 21 February 1664/65
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Lady Castlemayne will in merriment say that her daughter (not above a year old or two) ..."
This is linked to Charlotte Fitzroy Palmer, who was the second daughter of Barbara Villiers Palmer, Countess of Castlemaine, and was born 5 September 1664 making her 5 months old.
However, Charles II and Barbara's first daughter is also alive and well, and would be going on four:
Anne Palmer Fitzroy (later Anne Lennart, Countess of Sussex) (25 February 1661 – 16 May 1721 or 1722) -- for more information, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann…...
Personally, if I were the mother, I'd be boasting about how precocious my 4 year old was, not the 6 month old.