I was just reading the Wikipedia page for George Downing, and it says:
"More than any other man Sir George Downing was responsible for arranging the acquisition of New York from the Dutch, and is remembered there in the name of two other streets named after him in New York, one in Greenwich Village and one in Brooklyn."
This isn't the impression I have been given so far by the Diary or annotations. He just seems to be full of bad information about the Dutch intentions in Guinea. Can anyone enlighten me on this ... perhaps he's helpful later, so I just need to be patient?
I hope you are right, Louise. It's a difficult conversation to have otherwise -- could have been close to blackmail. And Tonyel's point about the male perspective ... that was the only one that counted. Sam benefited from Mrs. Lane's married state, although we are not to know at this point of their continued relationship. He hasn't exactly been dashing over there a lot lately, has he? His reluctance may have to do with not wanting this obligation to employ Mr. Lane.
David Quidnunc's 5 Dec 2003 list of rooms omits The House of Office (and the cellar where the waste is collected), and the Pepys' locked wine cellar (presumably a different cellar).
"Tonight I took occasion with the vintner’s man, ... to go down to the cellar with him ... and there, to my great vexation, I find that the cellar door hath long been kept unlocked, and above half the wine drunk." http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
So maybe Pepys keeps his money -- successfully locked up! -- in the wine cellar, presumably not right next to the barrels collecting from the House of Office!? That's where they locked up the French gold shipment (can't find my notes on that caper, but I recall they selected his cellar because it could be locked).
Okay Pepys, you've been thinking about Coventry's pep talk for 10 days. Knuckle down.
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1… Saturday 17 September 1664 Up and to the office, where Mr. Coventry very angry to see things go so coldly as they do, and I must needs say it makes me fearful every day of having some change of the office, and the truth is, I am of late a little guilty of being remiss myself of what I used to be, but I hope I shall come to my old pass again, my family being now settled again.
Titchfield Abbey (AKA Place House), Hampshire is known for its Shakespeare associations: Henry Wriothesley, 3rd Earl of Southampton, was the playwright's patron, and some of the bard's plays were first performed there.
Lying between Southampton and Portsmouth and inland from the Solent, Titchfield Abbey was established in the 13th century. It remained a monastery until the Dissolution, although it was also used as royal stopping-off place and marriage venue.
Position between two major ports, Titchfield was an ideal base for visits to the Isle of Wight or continental Europe: Richard II and Anne of Bohemia stayed here in 1393, Henry V in 1415, and in 1445 the abbey church saw the wedding of Henry VI to Margaret of Anjou. Edward VI and Queen Elizabeth also stayed here as guests.
Thomas Wriothesley, 1st Earl of Southampton, who, under Thomas Cromwell, became Lord Chancellor in 1544. Wriothesley built up the property befitting a senior courier by partial demolition of the Abbey and conversion of buildings into a new mansion.
Henry Wriothesley, 3rd Earl of Southampton and Shakespeare's patron, died in 1624, fighting in the Netherlands. His teenage son, Thomas Wriothesley, 4th Earl of Southampton, hosted the new monarch, King Charles and his new wife, at Place House in June 1625.
Fleeing the plague, the stay for the newly-weds was unhappy as their English and French entourages did their best to spoil the honeymoon. Quarrels between Charles and Henrietta over religion and status were exacerbated by their own intransigence and the refusal of their courts to compromise. Resolutions were difficult because the size of their Courts meant that one house could not accommodate everyone. While Henrietta lodged at Place House, Charles stayed at Beaulieu Abbey, the other side of Southampton Water in the New Forest. While Charles amused himself hunting, Henrietta retreated into religious devotions, horrifying the English by living the life of a nun, fasting and going barefoot, activities deemed inappropriate for a queen.
Charles and Henrietta returning briefly to Place House in 1630 after the birth of Charles - presumably a happier visit.
Charles' next visit, was in desperate times. In 1647, after escaping from Hampton Court, he stayed at Place House on his way to the presumed safety on the Isle of Wight.
Charles II visited Place House in 1675 to dine with Edward Noel, 1st Earl of Gainsborough, husband of Thomas Wriothesley, 4th Earl of Southampton's eldest daughter, who had inherited it from her father.
Place House was identified as a convenient place from which Mary of Modena could flee to France when a Dutch invasion was imminent in 1688.
Place House, Titchfield survived another 100 years, when much was demolished for building stone, leaving the romantic ruin we see today.
With the Restoration, Queen Henrietta Maria returned and in 1661 began a program of rebuilding Somerset House, the main feature of which was a magnificent new river front, to the design of the late Inigo Jones (who had died at Denmark). However Dowager Queen Henrietta Marie returned to France in 1665 before the rebuilding of the river front was finished.
"... Sir G. Carteret and we met about an order of the Council for the hiring him a house, giving him 1000l. fine, and 70l. per annum for it. Here Sir J. Minnes took occasion, in the most childish and most unbeseeming manner, to reproach us all, but most himself, that he was not valued as Comptroller among us, nor did anything but only set his hand to paper, which is but too true; and every body had a palace, and he no house to lie in, and wished he had but as much to build him a house with, as we have laid out in carved worke. It was to no end to oppose, but all bore it, and after laughed at him for it."
I read this as Carteret wanting a house. Then Mennes takes to grumbling that no one gives him anything to do except sign off on their work, and he doesn't like his house either. Which makes no sense because:
From Claire Tomalin's "Samuel Pepys: The Unequalled Self" pp 49-50 http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo… "Sir George Carteret, an impeccable royalist whose service at sea had begun under King Charles and who had held Jersey for him, was appointed Treasurer. He had official lodgings at Whitehall, a house in Pall Mall, another at Deptford and a country mansion near Windsor, and he was the highest paid, with L2,000 a year and the right to three pence in every pound he handled -- this was a remnant of the old way of doing things."
So it must be Carteret proposing that Mennes gets a better house, even if that's not what Pepys says.
"I wondered what a boy would do when "attending" Sam to church." Since he was a trained chorister, sing loudly for a start. Also elbow Pepys awake if he snored too loudly. Look at the girls is likely. Church wasn't the refined, quiet, meditative experience we have today ... cats and dogs hunted rats and mice; the poor had to stand for hours on end; there was no Sunday School so children were doing what children do. In short, self-conscious bedlam.
"... and went to Guardener’s Lane, and there instead of meeting with one that was handsome and could play well, as they told me, she is the ugliest beast and plays so basely as I never heard anybody, so that I should loathe her being in my house. However, she took us by and by and showed us indeed some pictures at one Hiseman’s, a picture drawer, a Dutchman, which is said to exceed Lilly, and indeed there is both of the Queenes and Mayds of Honour (particularly Mrs. Stewart’s in a buff doublet like a soldier) as good pictures, I think, as ever I saw. The Queene is drawn in one like a shepherdess, in the other like St. Katharin, most like and most admirably. I was mightily pleased with this sight indeed, ..."
I posted about gold because all the info I have is about gold. However, lots of silver came out of South America. Silver mentions I am familiar with are about candlesticks and silver lace.
Of the nine coins in the Pepys Diary encyclopedia, only the Groat is silver: "From the reigns of Charles II to George III, groats (by now often known as fourpences) were issued on an irregular basis for general circulation, the only years of mintage after 1786 being in 1792, 1795, and 1800."
If you poke around, I'd be interested to hear what you learn.
"... had been abroad since July 1662, first in Paris and Saumur, then in Turin, ..."
Incidentally, Saumer was also where the Montagu sons were back in July. Were they also recalled?
Saumur is on the Loire, about 150 miles S.W. of Paris. It was one of a number of towns where, under the Edict of Nantes, Protestants had full freedom of worship and other guarantees, which they retained until 1685 when the Edict was revoked.
The boys were sent there because of the traditional links between the Loire Valley and England and Scotland. In the Hundred Years’ War thousands of Scots fought in the service of the Dauphin, later Charles VII, and many of those who survived settled there. Thus Orleans was defended by its Scottish Bishop, Carmichael, in 1428-29, and St. Joan of Arc’s force (which relieved Saumer on 8 May) was about half Scottish: it entered the city to the marching tune which later became "Scots Wha’ Hae". So there must have been many English-speaking people there -- or at least the Scots version of English.
Correspondence was usually carried by friends or acquaintances who happened to be travelling that way at. Often it was delivered to a pub or grocer’s shop, frequently used by the intended recipient or by his servants. There were some (expensive) private postal operators, sometimes called "trumpeters" who were not reliable and there were frequent complaints of letters not arriving. Even if the letters were not stolen or thrown overboard, correspondence could take a long time to reach its destination (e.g. in the 1650's 10 days between Scotland and London, and three weeks between Scotland and Holland).
From Eliza Picard, page 170/171: "Diseases and Causalities this week" [3rd week of August 1664] Abortive 5 Still borne 17 Stone 2 teeth 121 childbed 42 Christened 176
So 121 people died in one week from bad teeth in London. I was wondering why people died from being Christened, and then I realized that it was almost the total of the other causes combined ... presumably a few children died without benefit of clergy (which must include some called still borne).
Teeth and abscesses are dangerous -- we don't think about that any more.
However, my question really was this: Is it Sandwich watching Texel, or is there another English fleet in the Channel (under who?) blockading Texel, with Sandwich providing back-up (a good idea because you never know which way the wind will be blowing when you need to intercept those damned Dutch)?
They can't be totally dependent on Downing's intelligence ... he's in The Hague, not Texel, so that would be inefficient at best. Or is he in Amsterdam?
I need to read something more meaty than Wikipedia about the Second Dutch War so I don't have to ask these elementary questions! Any suggestions?
Do I understanding the situation correctly: England has a fleet watching Texel (under who?), and Sandwich's small fleet is strategically stationed in the Channel to cut off the Dutch fleet when it sails for Gambia (which it never does)?
Do I understanding the situation correctly: England has a fleet watching Texel (under who?), and Sandwich is strategically stationed in the Channel to cut off the Dutch fleet when it sails for Gambia (which it never does)?
Comments
Second Reading
About Thursday 29 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
I was just reading the Wikipedia page for George Downing, and it says:
"More than any other man Sir George Downing was responsible for arranging the acquisition of New York from the Dutch, and is remembered there in the name of two other streets named after him in New York, one in Greenwich Village and one in Brooklyn."
This isn't the impression I have been given so far by the Diary or annotations. He just seems to be full of bad information about the Dutch intentions in Guinea. Can anyone enlighten me on this ... perhaps he's helpful later, so I just need to be patient?
About Monday 5 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
I hope you are right, Louise. It's a difficult conversation to have otherwise -- could have been close to blackmail. And Tonyel's point about the male perspective ... that was the only one that counted. Sam benefited from Mrs. Lane's married state, although we are not to know at this point of their continued relationship. He hasn't exactly been dashing over there a lot lately, has he? His reluctance may have to do with not wanting this obligation to employ Mr. Lane.
About Wednesday 28 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Thence to W. Joyce’s, and there found my aunt and cozen Mary come home from my father’s with great pleasure and content ..."
Good to hear William Joyce's broken head isn't that badly broken.
About Pepys’ home in Seething Lane
San Diego Sarah • Link
David Quidnunc's 5 Dec 2003 list of rooms omits The House of Office (and the cellar where the waste is collected), and the Pepys' locked wine cellar (presumably a different cellar).
About Tuesday 27 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
"Tonight I took occasion with the vintner’s man, ... to go down to the cellar with him ... and there, to my great vexation, I find that the cellar door hath long been kept unlocked, and above half the wine drunk." http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
So maybe Pepys keeps his money -- successfully locked up! -- in the wine cellar, presumably not right next to the barrels collecting from the House of Office!? That's where they locked up the French gold shipment (can't find my notes on that caper, but I recall they selected his cellar because it could be locked).
About Monday 26 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
Okay Pepys, you've been thinking about Coventry's pep talk for 10 days. Knuckle down.
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Saturday 17 September 1664
Up and to the office, where Mr. Coventry very angry to see things go so coldly as they do, and I must needs say it makes me fearful every day of having some change of the office, and the truth is, I am of late a little guilty of being remiss myself of what I used to be, but I hope I shall come to my old pass again, my family being now settled again.
About Monday 26 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
Notes from http://www.englishcivilwar.org/20…
Titchfield Abbey (AKA Place House), Hampshire is known for its Shakespeare associations: Henry Wriothesley, 3rd Earl of Southampton, was the playwright's patron, and some of the bard's plays were first performed there.
Lying between Southampton and Portsmouth and inland from the Solent, Titchfield Abbey was established in the 13th century. It remained a monastery until the Dissolution, although it was also used as royal stopping-off place and marriage venue.
Position between two major ports, Titchfield was an ideal base for visits to the Isle of Wight or continental Europe: Richard II and Anne of Bohemia stayed here in 1393, Henry V in 1415, and in 1445 the abbey church saw the wedding of Henry VI to Margaret of Anjou. Edward VI and Queen Elizabeth also stayed here as guests.
Thomas Wriothesley, 1st Earl of Southampton, who, under Thomas Cromwell, became Lord Chancellor in 1544. Wriothesley built up the property befitting a senior courier by partial demolition of the Abbey and conversion of buildings into a new mansion.
Henry Wriothesley, 3rd Earl of Southampton and Shakespeare's patron, died in 1624, fighting in the Netherlands. His teenage son, Thomas Wriothesley, 4th Earl of Southampton, hosted the new monarch, King Charles and his new wife, at Place House in June 1625.
Fleeing the plague, the stay for the newly-weds was unhappy as their English and French entourages did their best to spoil the honeymoon. Quarrels between Charles and Henrietta over religion and status were exacerbated by their own intransigence and the refusal of their courts to compromise. Resolutions were difficult because the size of their Courts meant that one house could not accommodate everyone. While Henrietta lodged at Place House, Charles stayed at Beaulieu Abbey, the other side of Southampton Water in the New Forest. While Charles amused himself hunting, Henrietta retreated into religious devotions, horrifying the English by living the life of a nun, fasting and going barefoot, activities deemed inappropriate for a queen.
Charles and Henrietta returning briefly to Place House in 1630 after the birth of Charles - presumably a happier visit.
Charles' next visit, was in desperate times. In 1647, after escaping from Hampton Court, he stayed at Place House on his way to the presumed safety on the Isle of Wight.
Charles II visited Place House in 1675 to dine with Edward Noel, 1st Earl of Gainsborough, husband of Thomas Wriothesley, 4th Earl of Southampton's eldest daughter, who had inherited it from her father.
Place House was identified as a convenient place from which Mary of Modena could flee to France when a Dutch invasion was imminent in 1688.
Place House, Titchfield survived another 100 years, when much was demolished for building stone, leaving the romantic ruin we see today.
About Thursday 1 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
Louise ... JWB on 2 September 2007 answers as best we can your question, " I wonder who the Moorcocke who sent it was."
And Sasha, "did" read just fine until you put that label on it, and now I'm confused.
About Somerset House
San Diego Sarah • Link
With the Restoration, Queen Henrietta Maria returned and in 1661 began a program of rebuilding Somerset House, the main feature of which was a magnificent new river front, to the design of the late Inigo Jones (who had died at Denmark). However Dowager Queen Henrietta Marie returned to France in 1665 before the rebuilding of the river front was finished.
About Monday 29 August 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
Kelvin ... I pushed through on the link and came to a related article written in 2017:
http://www.independent.co.uk/mone…
About Friday 23 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
"... Sir G. Carteret and we met about an order of the Council for the hiring him a house, giving him 1000l. fine, and 70l. per annum for it. Here Sir J. Minnes took occasion, in the most childish and most unbeseeming manner, to reproach us all, but most himself, that he was not valued as Comptroller among us, nor did anything but only set his hand to paper, which is but too true; and every body had a palace, and he no house to lie in, and wished he had but as much to build him a house with, as we have laid out in carved worke. It was to no end to oppose, but all bore it, and after laughed at him for it."
I read this as Carteret wanting a house. Then Mennes takes to grumbling that no one gives him anything to do except sign off on their work, and he doesn't like his house either. Which makes no sense because:
From Claire Tomalin's "Samuel Pepys: The Unequalled Self" pp 49-50 http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclo… "Sir George Carteret, an impeccable royalist whose service at sea had begun under King Charles and who had held Jersey for him, was appointed Treasurer. He had official lodgings at Whitehall, a house in Pall Mall, another at Deptford and a country mansion near Windsor, and he was the highest paid, with L2,000 a year and the right to three pence in every pound he handled -- this was a remnant of the old way of doing things."
So it must be Carteret proposing that Mennes gets a better house, even if that's not what Pepys says.
About Sunday 28 August 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
"I wondered what a boy would do when "attending" Sam to church." Since he was a trained chorister, sing loudly for a start. Also elbow Pepys awake if he snored too loudly. Look at the girls is likely. Church wasn't the refined, quiet, meditative experience we have today ... cats and dogs hunted rats and mice; the poor had to stand for hours on end; there was no Sunday School so children were doing what children do. In short, self-conscious bedlam.
About Wednesday 21 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
Pepys learned about Huysmans when out looking for a companion for Elizabeth:
http://www.pepysdiary.com/diary/1…
Friday 26 August 1664
"... and went to Guardener’s Lane, and there instead of meeting with one that was handsome and could play well, as they told me, she is the ugliest beast and plays so basely as I never heard anybody, so that I should loathe her being in my house. However, she took us by and by and showed us indeed some pictures at one Hiseman’s, a picture drawer, a Dutchman, which is said to exceed Lilly, and indeed there is both of the Queenes and Mayds of Honour (particularly Mrs. Stewart’s in a buff doublet like a soldier) as good pictures, I think, as ever I saw. The Queene is drawn in one like a shepherdess, in the other like St. Katharin, most like and most admirably. I was mightily pleased with this sight indeed, ..."
About Saturday 16 July 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
I posted about gold because all the info I have is about gold. However, lots of silver came out of South America. Silver mentions I am familiar with are about candlesticks and silver lace.
Of the nine coins in the Pepys Diary encyclopedia, only the Groat is silver:
"From the reigns of Charles II to George III, groats (by now often known as fourpences) were issued on an irregular basis for general circulation, the only years of mintage after 1786 being in 1792, 1795, and 1800."
If you poke around, I'd be interested to hear what you learn.
About Friday 26 August 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
"... had been abroad since July 1662, first in Paris and Saumur, then in Turin, ..."
Incidentally, Saumer was also where the Montagu sons were back in July. Were they also recalled?
Saumur is on the Loire, about 150 miles S.W. of Paris. It was one of a number of towns where, under the Edict of Nantes, Protestants had full freedom of worship and other guarantees, which they retained until 1685 when the Edict was revoked.
The boys were sent there because of the traditional links between the Loire Valley and England and Scotland. In the Hundred Years’ War thousands of Scots fought in the service of the Dauphin, later Charles VII, and many of those who survived settled there. Thus Orleans was defended by its Scottish Bishop, Carmichael, in 1428-29, and St. Joan of Arc’s force (which relieved Saumer on 8 May) was about half Scottish: it entered the city to the marching tune which later became "Scots Wha’ Hae". So there must have been many English-speaking people there -- or at least the Scots version of English.
Correspondence was usually carried by friends or acquaintances who happened to be travelling that way at. Often it was delivered to a pub or grocer’s shop, frequently used by the intended recipient or by his servants. There were some (expensive) private postal operators, sometimes called "trumpeters" who were not reliable and there were frequent complaints of letters not arriving. Even if the letters were not stolen or thrown overboard, correspondence could take a long time to reach its destination (e.g. in the 1650's 10 days between Scotland and London, and three weeks between Scotland and Holland).
Information compiled from http://www.electricscotland.com/h…
Chapter VI - The Ancram-Lothian Correspondence
About Wednesday 2 December 1663
San Diego Sarah • Link
From Eliza Picard, page 170/171:
"Diseases and Causalities this week" [3rd week of August 1664]
Abortive 5
Still borne 17
Stone 2
teeth 121
childbed 42
Christened 176
So 121 people died in one week from bad teeth in London. I was wondering why people died from being Christened, and then I realized that it was almost the total of the other causes combined ... presumably a few children died without benefit of clergy (which must include some called still borne).
Teeth and abscesses are dangerous -- we don't think about that any more.
About Friday 16 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
Thanks, Terry -- interesting.
However, my question really was this: Is it Sandwich watching Texel, or is there another English fleet in the Channel (under who?) blockading Texel, with Sandwich providing back-up (a good idea because you never know which way the wind will be blowing when you need to intercept those damned Dutch)?
They can't be totally dependent on Downing's intelligence ... he's in The Hague, not Texel, so that would be inefficient at best. Or is he in Amsterdam?
I need to read something more meaty than Wikipedia about the Second Dutch War so I don't have to ask these elementary questions! Any suggestions?
About Saturday 17 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
"I am glad enough of it, for I see my uncle is so given up to the Wights that I hope for little more of them."
Uncle Wight has found a willing niece?
About Friday 16 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
Do I understanding the situation correctly: England has a fleet watching Texel (under who?), and Sandwich's small fleet is strategically stationed in the Channel to cut off the Dutch fleet when it sails for Gambia (which it never does)?
About Friday 16 September 1664
San Diego Sarah • Link
Do I understanding the situation correctly: England has a fleet watching Texel (under who?), and Sandwich is strategically stationed in the Channel to cut off the Dutch fleet when it sails for Gambia (which it never does)?